Beth
BSB Addict
I am not surprised by the verdict; I do believe the prosecution proved its case. But I would also say that, there are no winners in this trial
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Tyler Clementi Suicide Case
- Thread starter tim114
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Beth
BSB Addict
Sorry about the broken links. The latest one works for my computer. It is from nj.com, which has done a good job on covering the case. This article shows a breakdown of the verdict.
Again I am not a lawyer, so my take on this could be wrong. It appears there are three paths to get to guilty when it comes to bias intimidation. Count # 1 guilty. Count # 2 guilty using the third path. Count # 3 guilty. Count # 4 guilty using second and third path. Counts 1 - 4 pertain to the viewing on Sept. 19. Ravi did no harm to M.B. How is that? Count # 5 guilty. Count # 6 guilty using first, second and third paths. Ravi did no harm to M.B. Count # 7 guilty. Count # 8 guilty using first, second and third paths. Ravi did no harm to M.B. Counts 5 - 8 pertain to the attempted viewing on Sept. 21.
It appears to me the jury found Ravi guilty of just about everything. I am fairly certain this case will be appealed. I also think we are going to hear a lot about New Jersey's bias intimidation statue in the future.
Again I am not a lawyer, so my take on this could be wrong. It appears there are three paths to get to guilty when it comes to bias intimidation. Count # 1 guilty. Count # 2 guilty using the third path. Count # 3 guilty. Count # 4 guilty using second and third path. Counts 1 - 4 pertain to the viewing on Sept. 19. Ravi did no harm to M.B. How is that? Count # 5 guilty. Count # 6 guilty using first, second and third paths. Ravi did no harm to M.B. Count # 7 guilty. Count # 8 guilty using first, second and third paths. Ravi did no harm to M.B. Counts 5 - 8 pertain to the attempted viewing on Sept. 21.
It appears to me the jury found Ravi guilty of just about everything. I am fairly certain this case will be appealed. I also think we are going to hear a lot about New Jersey's bias intimidation statue in the future.
http://www.philly.com/
The article I tried to link to is here under breaking news. It appears I am not the reading the verdict the same way as this author(s) is. In the second attempt, the jury said that Ravi set up the cam show to intimidate Tyler, knowing that it would intimidate Tyler and, even if that wasn't the case, Tyler would have felt intimidated.
The article I tried to link to is here under breaking news. It appears I am not the reading the verdict the same way as this author(s) is. In the second attempt, the jury said that Ravi set up the cam show to intimidate Tyler, knowing that it would intimidate Tyler and, even if that wasn't the case, Tyler would have felt intimidated.
I think I found the article you're referring to Tim:
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20120316_Ravi_guilty_on_most_counts_in_Rutgers_spycam_case.html
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20120316_Ravi_guilty_on_most_counts_in_Rutgers_spycam_case.html
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/03/man_seen_kissing_tyler_clement_1.html
This article answers my question about why Ravi was not found guilty of bias intimidation against M.B. Makes sense.
This article answers my question about why Ravi was not found guilty of bias intimidation against M.B. Makes sense.
I'll make a few comments here. The defense did a poor job of presenting the defendant to the jury. Mainly because they couldn't save Ravi from himself. During the trial the camera showed him looking very bored and disinterested in what was going on. Other times he was seen smiling and laughing with his defense team. The jurors were the ones who were being taken away from their daily lives and being forced to give of their time for this trial for maybe $15 a day in compensation. He was not a sympathetic figure in the courtroom at all.
One thing I don't think I mentioned about the jury being instructed before they went to deliberate... The judge told them alot of lengthy and tedious instructions on how they were to decide each count and in what order. It's very, very boring stuff to listen to. I admit that. But what was Ravi doing and how was behaving with the future of his life being decided? I mean after all the stakes for him were huge. He's 20 y/o now. He's not such a naive child that he didn't know how serious this was. The jury was getting ready to decide if maybe he was going to get community service and/or probation...or whether he was going to be going behind bars for possibly the next 10 years getting very intimate with his new best friend Bubba. (Most legal experts who have spoken to the media expect to see him sentenced to 5 years.)
So what was Ravi doing to show some remorse or concern to the jury right before they went to decide the future of his whole life? He was nodding off and falling asleep with his chin in his hands! Not just once or twice or three times. Many times! He was too stupid to realize how disrespectful that would look to outside observers watching on tv, or the jury. It made him look like he didn't take any of this very seriously at all. Almost as if he was the one whose time was being wasted with all this nonsense of a trial. How were the jurors supposed to feel when they saw that? And Tyler's mom, dad and brother are sitting right there in front of them?
The defense screwed up very badly. They totally misread the jury. That's what they are paid and trained to do. Get into the mindset of your jury and anticipate where they are going, and what they need to hear to acquit. I'm told that they (his lawyers) were stunned because they thought they were winning all along. As just a biased tv observer i never believed they were winning. That's one reason why they felt comfortable with not putting Ravi on the stand. They didn't think they needed to because they thought they had it in the bag. They thought the state had not proven its case to the jury and that they had.
If they had put him on the stand it might have humanized him in the eyes of the jury. He could have told them in his own words that he did not seek out Tyler to humiliate or intimidate him because he was gay. (Even if that was the end result.) It would have been interesting to see if his words would have had any sincerity or impact.
He should have taken the plea deal, done the community service and probation and then fought tooth and nail with defense lawyers if the feds still wanted to deport him. He forced the state to spend perhaps millions of dollars on a trial because he didn't want to admit any guilt at all. Now in the eyes of the law he is a convicted felon. Deportation after completing his prison sentence is now almost a certainty.
And just because you appeal a conviction doesn't mean that it will be overturned. It might be upheld on appeal. Double jeopardy is not in play. Even if his lawyers appeal successfully and demand another trial they can't be sure of winning that one either.
I'm reminded of a tweet he sent to a female friend right after the suicide. He said that he had left the dorm and was staying at his parents' house for the time being...just waiting "until all of this blows over". Presumably so that he could come back to the dorms, resume classes and pretend like the whole thing never happened. Here it is nearly two years later and I'm still not sure that he gets it.
One thing I don't think I mentioned about the jury being instructed before they went to deliberate... The judge told them alot of lengthy and tedious instructions on how they were to decide each count and in what order. It's very, very boring stuff to listen to. I admit that. But what was Ravi doing and how was behaving with the future of his life being decided? I mean after all the stakes for him were huge. He's 20 y/o now. He's not such a naive child that he didn't know how serious this was. The jury was getting ready to decide if maybe he was going to get community service and/or probation...or whether he was going to be going behind bars for possibly the next 10 years getting very intimate with his new best friend Bubba. (Most legal experts who have spoken to the media expect to see him sentenced to 5 years.)
So what was Ravi doing to show some remorse or concern to the jury right before they went to decide the future of his whole life? He was nodding off and falling asleep with his chin in his hands! Not just once or twice or three times. Many times! He was too stupid to realize how disrespectful that would look to outside observers watching on tv, or the jury. It made him look like he didn't take any of this very seriously at all. Almost as if he was the one whose time was being wasted with all this nonsense of a trial. How were the jurors supposed to feel when they saw that? And Tyler's mom, dad and brother are sitting right there in front of them?
The defense screwed up very badly. They totally misread the jury. That's what they are paid and trained to do. Get into the mindset of your jury and anticipate where they are going, and what they need to hear to acquit. I'm told that they (his lawyers) were stunned because they thought they were winning all along. As just a biased tv observer i never believed they were winning. That's one reason why they felt comfortable with not putting Ravi on the stand. They didn't think they needed to because they thought they had it in the bag. They thought the state had not proven its case to the jury and that they had.
If they had put him on the stand it might have humanized him in the eyes of the jury. He could have told them in his own words that he did not seek out Tyler to humiliate or intimidate him because he was gay. (Even if that was the end result.) It would have been interesting to see if his words would have had any sincerity or impact.
He should have taken the plea deal, done the community service and probation and then fought tooth and nail with defense lawyers if the feds still wanted to deport him. He forced the state to spend perhaps millions of dollars on a trial because he didn't want to admit any guilt at all. Now in the eyes of the law he is a convicted felon. Deportation after completing his prison sentence is now almost a certainty.
And just because you appeal a conviction doesn't mean that it will be overturned. It might be upheld on appeal. Double jeopardy is not in play. Even if his lawyers appeal successfully and demand another trial they can't be sure of winning that one either.
I'm reminded of a tweet he sent to a female friend right after the suicide. He said that he had left the dorm and was staying at his parents' house for the time being...just waiting "until all of this blows over". Presumably so that he could come back to the dorms, resume classes and pretend like the whole thing never happened. Here it is nearly two years later and I'm still not sure that he gets it.
I'm very pleased to hear M.B.'s reaction to the verdict.
All I can say is I didn't predict the jury would find Ravi guilty of bias intimidation. However, that is the chance one takes when deciding to go the trial. I watched some of Altman's closing argument. If I were his defense lawyer, I would have gone over each of the 35 questions, one by one. I would have left the jury what that as the defense's last statement.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/rutgers-trial-legal-explaineer/story?id=15939011#.T2QYxEZ4SFF
An explanation of the verdict. Looks like the first viewing was broken down into Count #1: Ravi viewing for himself(and Molly) & Count # 3: making it possible for other to view. Counts # 2 & 4 were the bias intimidation charges that went with this. Counts # 5 & 7 were for the attempted invasion of privacy, one for Ravi alone and the other for the possible group viewing. Counts 6 & 8 were the bias intimdation charges that went with this.
An explanation of the verdict. Looks like the first viewing was broken down into Count #1: Ravi viewing for himself(and Molly) & Count # 3: making it possible for other to view. Counts # 2 & 4 were the bias intimidation charges that went with this. Counts # 5 & 7 were for the attempted invasion of privacy, one for Ravi alone and the other for the possible group viewing. Counts 6 & 8 were the bias intimdation charges that went with this.
JLipps4u
BSB Addict
Tim,
Thanks for all the information. I am surprised he was found guilty though. Let us just hope that the "message" will be seen/heard by those who need it most.
Thanks for all the information. I am surprised he was found guilty though. Let us just hope that the "message" will be seen/heard by those who need it most.
http://blog.nj.com/njv_mark_diionno/2012/03/di_ionno_in_wake_of_conviction.html
Here is some new information on why both plea deals were rejected.
Here is some new information on why both plea deals were rejected.
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