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Tyler Clementi Suicide Case
- Thread starter tim114
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http://blog.nj.com/njv_mark_diionno/2012/03/di_ionno_should_ravi_take_the.html\
Article discussing the pros and cons of putting Ravi on the stand.
Article discussing the pros and cons of putting Ravi on the stand.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/03/jury_in_ravi_trial_requests_cl.html
The jury has asked the judge questions about the bias counts. As the first comment under the article points out, this could be an indication that they have already decided there was an invasion of privacy. If the jury found that there was no invasion, the bias counts would be moot.
The jury has asked the judge questions about the bias counts. As the first comment under the article points out, this could be an indication that they have already decided there was an invasion of privacy. If the jury found that there was no invasion, the bias counts would be moot.
Yesterday's closing arguments by the defense went on for a mind numbing 3 hours. It was not worth my time to watch all of it. He tried poking some holes in the testimony of others. At one point he called Ojha a liar for saying that he helped Ravi make sure that the webcam was perfectly positioned to capture Tyler's bed on the afternoon of the 21st. Unfortunately the prosecution's closing happened after 3:00 yesterday and after the tv coverage went off the air. And the prosecution's closing was what I most wanted to see anyway. Oh well... We did get to see some recorded clips of her arguments today. She built a very strong and emotionally, intellectually forceful case for conviction on all counts.
I agree that this jury has a heavy burden. I do not expect a quick verdict in this case. I would not be surprised if we don't see a verdict until well into next week or beyond. There are so many charges and counts for them to go over. The reason the burden is so heavy on the judge to give good instructions to the jury and the reason that the criminal justice system has so much at stake here beyond the likes of Dharun Ravi is this... Because this case will be making "new law". The intimidation and bias charges were not necessarily contemplated with all of the more modern technology we have in the way of webcams, ichat, texting, Twitter and the seemingly ever growing social media. Therefore this case will set legal precedents for many cases to follow and become an important source of legal reference for defense attorneys and prosecutors alike to refer to in the context of many future trials.
That brings up the issues of appeal and the overturning of verdicts. Because the stakes are so high as far as how future intimidation and bias charges nationwide will likely be applied in the context of cyber bullying...if Ravi is indeed convicted of bias and intimidation charges then the verdict will likely be appealed. I'm hoping the verdict does not go to appeal. But it's a definite possibility. Of course even if it is appealed that doesn't mean that it will be overturned and a new trial set. It could very well be upheld on appeal. We'll have to wait for the verdict and sentencing first. I say sentencing because I'm all but certain that he will be found guilty of something.
We were given a strong clue today that in less than 3 hours of deliberations that they had already found him guilty of one count. They asked the judge, after over 2 hours into deliberations, for clarifications on terminology related to "intimidation" and some other term possibly related the bias charges. Legal experts noted that they jurors were instructed that a count they were asking about was to be ignored unless they had already decided on a guilty verdict of a lesser charge coming before it. Many charges were stacked that way. The same charge but in an ascending order of severity and therefore punishment. For instance if you decide a defendant is innocent of a crime in the 3rd degree, then you don't have to bother trying to decide if he is guilty of 2nd or 1st degree. But if you decide he's guilty of something in the foruth degree, you then have to decide if that same crime rises to the level of 3rd, 2nd, 1st. With all remaining ones being off the table as soon as you say not guilty to any ascending charge. It is a little lopsided and counter-intuitive. Because 1st degree means the crime is the worst possible under that particular offense. And the higher numbers mean the crime was committed with lesser severity, damage and/or intent.
So the jury did tip its hand a little bit today and gave the impression that it had already found him guilty of some charge in the lesser degrees. And they were working their way up the list deliberating on that same charge. I wish I could tell you precisely and with certainty what that charge was. But as someone who is not a legal expert, and without having the written indictment in front of me, it was a little lost to me in the translation. I'm sure it will come out in the print media.
If Ravi gets a slap on the wrist with no jail time and no threat of deportation, then the defense will have little incentive to appeal. Then the state would have to decide if it wanted to spend the time and money to appeal. My guess is that they would not.
I agree that this jury has a heavy burden. I do not expect a quick verdict in this case. I would not be surprised if we don't see a verdict until well into next week or beyond. There are so many charges and counts for them to go over. The reason the burden is so heavy on the judge to give good instructions to the jury and the reason that the criminal justice system has so much at stake here beyond the likes of Dharun Ravi is this... Because this case will be making "new law". The intimidation and bias charges were not necessarily contemplated with all of the more modern technology we have in the way of webcams, ichat, texting, Twitter and the seemingly ever growing social media. Therefore this case will set legal precedents for many cases to follow and become an important source of legal reference for defense attorneys and prosecutors alike to refer to in the context of many future trials.
That brings up the issues of appeal and the overturning of verdicts. Because the stakes are so high as far as how future intimidation and bias charges nationwide will likely be applied in the context of cyber bullying...if Ravi is indeed convicted of bias and intimidation charges then the verdict will likely be appealed. I'm hoping the verdict does not go to appeal. But it's a definite possibility. Of course even if it is appealed that doesn't mean that it will be overturned and a new trial set. It could very well be upheld on appeal. We'll have to wait for the verdict and sentencing first. I say sentencing because I'm all but certain that he will be found guilty of something.
We were given a strong clue today that in less than 3 hours of deliberations that they had already found him guilty of one count. They asked the judge, after over 2 hours into deliberations, for clarifications on terminology related to "intimidation" and some other term possibly related the bias charges. Legal experts noted that they jurors were instructed that a count they were asking about was to be ignored unless they had already decided on a guilty verdict of a lesser charge coming before it. Many charges were stacked that way. The same charge but in an ascending order of severity and therefore punishment. For instance if you decide a defendant is innocent of a crime in the 3rd degree, then you don't have to bother trying to decide if he is guilty of 2nd or 1st degree. But if you decide he's guilty of something in the foruth degree, you then have to decide if that same crime rises to the level of 3rd, 2nd, 1st. With all remaining ones being off the table as soon as you say not guilty to any ascending charge. It is a little lopsided and counter-intuitive. Because 1st degree means the crime is the worst possible under that particular offense. And the higher numbers mean the crime was committed with lesser severity, damage and/or intent.
So the jury did tip its hand a little bit today and gave the impression that it had already found him guilty of some charge in the lesser degrees. And they were working their way up the list deliberating on that same charge. I wish I could tell you precisely and with certainty what that charge was. But as someone who is not a legal expert, and without having the written indictment in front of me, it was a little lost to me in the translation. I'm sure it will come out in the print media.
If Ravi gets a slap on the wrist with no jail time and no threat of deportation, then the defense will have little incentive to appeal. Then the state would have to decide if it wanted to spend the time and money to appeal. My guess is that they would not.
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Tampa,
Many good points here. Couple of legal technical questions. I am not a lawyer and haven't done any research on the questions.
1. If the prosecution does not like the verdict, can it appeal the case. I don't think so.
2. If the defense appeals the verdict, and the appeals court overturns the case, is there a new trial? I don't know, but I think the appeals court may make that decision.
Many good points here. Couple of legal technical questions. I am not a lawyer and haven't done any research on the questions.
1. If the prosecution does not like the verdict, can it appeal the case. I don't think so.
2. If the defense appeals the verdict, and the appeals court overturns the case, is there a new trial? I don't know, but I think the appeals court may make that decision.
Home New Tribune 03.14.12
Who shut down the computer during the second attempt on Sept. 21st?
In his closing arguments Mr. Altman claimed Ravi shut down the computer. McClure, for the prosecution, claims that according to swipe-key records, Ravi was not in the building at the time the computer was shut down.
Some Questions:
1. Could Ravi have shut down the computer remotely?
2. There was testimony that Clementi shut it down, I think. Could they have both shut down the computer.
3. When Ravi got back to the dorm after practice, who did he speak to first about the web-cam viewing and what was Ravi's response? If Ravi shut it down, he shouldn't have to ask about it. Did he show any surprise when he learned that it didn't work.
It is difficult to follow a trial only from news reportage.
Who shut down the computer during the second attempt on Sept. 21st?
In his closing arguments Mr. Altman claimed Ravi shut down the computer. McClure, for the prosecution, claims that according to swipe-key records, Ravi was not in the building at the time the computer was shut down.
Some Questions:
1. Could Ravi have shut down the computer remotely?
2. There was testimony that Clementi shut it down, I think. Could they have both shut down the computer.
3. When Ravi got back to the dorm after practice, who did he speak to first about the web-cam viewing and what was Ravi's response? If Ravi shut it down, he shouldn't have to ask about it. Did he show any surprise when he learned that it didn't work.
It is difficult to follow a trial only from news reportage.
If memory serves we do have some lawyers or at least a few people with some legal expertise in here. Maybe they might be able to answer those questions.
Here's a clip I found that includes some of Tyler's JustUsBoys postings that were not used at trial because of hearsay laws protecting Ravi. In this one you see that Ravi's claim to police that he disabled the camera himself on the second day so as to not be able to see Tyler and M.B., was total B.S. But again this particular evidence was not allowed at trial. It was useful though in giving the prosecution factual information that allowed them to prove these events in other ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYWXeUAM6ws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYWXeUAM6ws
http://www.judiciary.state.nj.us/criminal/charges/bias3.pdf
Here is the statue on bias intimidation that I think we are dealing with here. I can't find out how old this statue is or how often it has been used. I think I read somewhere that the judge sat down with the attorneys to discuss his upcoming instructions to the jurors. At this point I believe he expressed his view that parts of the statue were not clear and that he couldn't be sure if some of his decisions would stand up to appeal.
I don't know how long this statue has been on the books or how often it has been used. However, my guess is that there is little case law (if that is the term) regarding this statue. So, as Tampa pointed out, the statue is on trial as well as Mr. Ravi.
Here is the statue on bias intimidation that I think we are dealing with here. I can't find out how old this statue is or how often it has been used. I think I read somewhere that the judge sat down with the attorneys to discuss his upcoming instructions to the jurors. At this point I believe he expressed his view that parts of the statue were not clear and that he couldn't be sure if some of his decisions would stand up to appeal.
I don't know how long this statue has been on the books or how often it has been used. However, my guess is that there is little case law (if that is the term) regarding this statue. So, as Tampa pointed out, the statue is on trial as well as Mr. Ravi.
http://blog.nj.com/njv_mark_diionno/2012/03/di_ionno_muddled_legislation_e.html
Finally an article about the bias intimidation statue. I had questions about this law from the beginning. According to McClure, if Mr. Ravi felt uncomfortable having a gay Tyler as a roommate, that could be considered bias intimidation. Do we really want to there?
Finally an article about the bias intimidation statue. I had questions about this law from the beginning. According to McClure, if Mr. Ravi felt uncomfortable having a gay Tyler as a roommate, that could be considered bias intimidation. Do we really want to there?
http://www.northjersey.com/news/crime_courts/tyler_clement_case/031612_Webcam_spying_case_cou
The bias intimidation statue is coming under question in the press. About time.
The bias intimidation statue is coming under question in the press. About time.
http://www.wnyc.org/articles/new-jersey-news/2012/mar/16/webcam-spying-case-prompts-qu
It is now about the bias intimidation law.
It is now about the bias intimidation law.
Here is a reading of the verdict:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/rutgers-trial-jury-reaches-verdict-tyler-clementi-spying/story?id=15922681
http://abcnews.go.com/US/rutgers-trial-jury-reaches-verdict-tyler-clementi-spying/story?id=15922681
Some photos from today and written explanations of the verdict.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...asion-privacy-bias-intimidation.html?ITO=1490
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...asion-privacy-bias-intimidation.html?ITO=1490
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