Tyler Clementi Suicide Case

[tim114]

Tampa, thanks for taking the time to report on this. I am not watching this on Trutv, so your reportage here is helpful.

I saw nothing in print where the questions got so graphic. Interesting. I tend to believe what was testified to previously about the content seen during the two viewings on the first Cam viewing. So they didn't see much. Now, as you mention, Tyler didn't know that. However, I think I read an email of his where he thought all they could see was some kissing. Was penetration performed on both Sunday and Tuesday?

I would assume that if one is viewing someone secretly, what ones sees is important. We have had testimony on that issue. What Tyler "thought" they saw may not be relevant to the case. It would be very relevant to Tyler's state of mind, but probably not to the charges at hand.

So far I would find Ravi guilty of invasion of privacy and attempted invasion of privacy. I feel there was no excuse for the second attempt that failed. This was much more blatant than the first viewing. Although it didn't come off as planned, it was intended to work. And I think Ravi was aware of that fact and therefore the cover-up moves. I would find him guilty of a hindering charge regarding changing a tweet about inviting all his friends to tune in a specified time frame.

 

[tampa24]

I saw nothing in print where the questions got so graphic. Interesting. I tend to believe what was testified to previously about the content seen during the two viewings on the first Cam viewing. So they didn't see much. Now, as you mention, Tyler didn't know that. However, I think I read an email of his where he thought all they could see was some kissing. Was penetration performed on both Sunday and Tuesday?

I would assume that if one is viewing someone secretly, what ones sees is important. We have had testimony on that issue. What Tyler "thought" they saw may not be relevant to the case. It would be very relevant to Tyler's state of mind, but probably not to the charges at hand.

So far I would find Ravi guilty of invasion of privacy and attempted invasion of privacy. I feel there was no excuse for the second attempt that failed. This was much more blatant than the first viewing. Although it didn't come off as planned, it was intended to work. And I think Ravi was aware of that fact and therefore the cover-up moves. I would find him guilty of a hindering charge regarding changing a tweet about inviting all his friends to tune in a specified time frame.

M. B. Said that he and Tyler had been IMing frequently for well over a month (on the adam4adma site) before Tyler moved to Rutgers to start school. M.B. lived only 20-35 minutes away from the campus. He said they met fact to face 3 times. It's not really clear if the first time was on campus. But I'm assuming it was. Even though no students they brought to the stand testified as to ever having seen him on the hall before the 19th. He said he saw Tyler on the 16th, 19th and 21st. On the first day they had no sex. So the answer to your question Tim is yes. He said they had sex with "penetration" on both days (the 19th and the 21st, Sunday and Tuesday) when Ravi was trying to view them.

Can you imagine having to say all of this in front of your late lover's mother?

Then Ravi's lawyers had a go at him. They asked him if he recalled any of the conversations he had had in IMing chats on the website. He said he did. He was asked if he had saved any of the chats to his computer. He said no. He was asked some question and said at one point that he assumed that after a certain length of time that the chats were automatically deleted from the original (a4a) site.

Then the defense attorney walks up with a hefty stack of papers containing the whole transcript log of their IM chats from the site. (That I can imagine were probably subpoenaed from the site owners.) You see M.B.'s hands trembling quite strongly as he is asked to review the authenticity of the documents. This was clearly an attempt by the defense to unnerve him. The media in their reporting do not address what I'm going to tell you because they don't get it from a straight perspective what another violation of privacy and blatant intimidation this was for M.B. Although the defense team clearly knew. That's why they did it.

Keep in mind here that we never hear what is said. We only see his hands and a shot of the small flat shelf-like area in front of his seat where one can set down documents. We see this large stack of paperwork that he is handed. It has many many lines that are blacked out or redacted. As I say, this was a clear attempt to intimidate him. One can only imagine that at least some of the chat between he and Tyler on a gay hookup site got very personal and sexually graphic. Even with many of the lines blacked out it sends a clear message to M.B. that the whole defense team has had a chance to view all of the most personal of the chat between he and Tyler before it was redacted out.

We are told that as he is asked to read and respond to questions about some of these comments in his text log...that one of Tyler's brothers ( the one who is also happens to be gay and also happens to be the one who looks most like Tyler)...became so uncomfortable with the questioning over these chat entries that he got up and left the courtroom. His parents and older brother stayed. I'm sure he returned later after collecting his composure. (Tyler was the youngest of the 3 brothers.)

M.B. is apparently asked about times in the chat where Tyler is asking to see him again and M.B. tells him he can't make it. He is asked why he told Tyler he couldn't get together with him. M.B. says he was working on those days. The attorney's asking him why he told Tyler he couldn't get together with him on this day or that. M.B. said that he was in a relationship with Tyler, and that they each wanted to spend as much time together as possible. (Keeping in mind that M.B. is 30 at the time and working a full-time job and Tyler is a full-time student.) Earlier he said that they had discussed getting together at a motel room since M.B. felt very uncomfortable about returning to the campus.

The attorneys being interviewed on trutv for the trial speculated that the defense might have been trying to set up a closing argument where they could say that Tyler didn't commit suicide because of Ravi's actions but because he was despondent over the fact that his boyfriend wouldn't come see him. Keeping in mind of course that Ravi is not on trial for the death of Tyler. But it's obviously the 800lb elephant hiding in the corner of the room. His death casts a pall over the whole proceedings. The attorneys interviewed doubted that the defense would have much success in swaying the jury with that argument.

I agree Tim. I myself would find Ravi guilty of the hindering (cover-up) charges. And the invasion of privacy charge is a no-brainer. I don't think the prosectution has come up with enough to convince the jury of the bias intimidation (hate crimes) violation. And of course the bias intimidation charge carries the most severe punishment he faces.

Keep in mind here that M.B. was described by Ravi and other students as "old", "shady looking", "scruffy", and "almost homeless looking". Here's some of the things the trutv reporter told us. She was a woman by the way.

"When M.B. entered the courtroom he looked very nervous. He didn't know where he was supposed to sit down and finally someone told him could sit down next to his lawyer. He's wearing black pants and a blue striped dress shirt." Later... "He's on the stand and his hands are trembling. He's very nervous. He has short dark hair. Black or dark brown. He's clean-shaven. He looks to be about 30 y/o or late 20's. He's adorable! His eyes sparkle. He looks like he works out. He comes across as very articulate. He answers the questions in a strong voice."

I forgot one of her more descriptive and sweet comments about M.B. She said he looks just like a young Gene Kelly. And she repeats again for emphasis that if you can just picture a young Gene Kelly, that that's what he looks like. She took alot of ribbing from her fellow anchors on the set, who were listening to her nearly swooning description of him from inside the courtroom. The reporter, who was probably in her early to mid 50's, was obviously very taken with him.

 

[Beth]

I do think the prosecution has shown it was a hate crime by having MB recount the encounters with such detail also because MB "felt" uncomfortable enough to say that they should meet off campus. To me, this shows that when Ravi planned to film them the second time, he did so because he knew it would be two gay men. Also tweeting about it and having more people in the hallway of the dorm shows that Ravi does not have any respect for his roommate.

 

[tampa24]

I hope you're right. M.B. said that both times when he walked out of Tyler's room and did the proverbial "walk of shame" that people were whispering and staring him down. He didn't know at the time that several people on the hall had been watching him being intimate with Tyler and already knew he was gay.

One of the biggest problems for the prosecution is that they are not allowed to ask anyone what Tyler said to them. Because that's hearsay. Since Tyler can't take the stand and say a conversation with him was accurately portrayed, then it's inadmissible in court. The defendant has the right to confront any accuser. And that's true even if the reason the person isn't there to accuse him is because the defendant drove him to jump off a bridge.

I would like a strong message to be sent by this verdict. But as I and others have stated, my feelings on this have evolved to where I don't want Ravi to have to do 5-10 years of hard time. Whatever is decided here I don't think prison is where he belongs.

I would have no problem with deportation though. He is a guest in our country. He didn't do this crime out of naivete or lack of awareness of social customs that were in conflict with his native heritage. What did we gain by giving this young man a chance at the American Dream? While his young age has to be taken into account here...what we got was an overprivileged, overindulged spoiled brat with delusions of grandeur. He considered himself such a genius and a whiz with computers. Yet his high school GPA was a staggering 2.5 He drove a BMW in high school. When he did what we might call "overzealous" internet research on his soon to be new roommate...and he found out the income average of the area where Tyler's family lived, he told a friend on Twitter, "I hate poor people." His parents didn't raise him very well.

Out of a billion plus people in India I would gladly give someone else there a chance over Ravi.

 

[tim114]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/rutgers-trial-mb-dharun-ravi-jailed/story?id=15839948#.T1KLeEZ4SFF

Tampa, please continue to comment on your viewing of the trial. It is very helpful.

 

[tim114]

http://www.northjersey.com/news/crime_courts/Testimony_contradicts_defense_in_Rutgers_webcam_trial

 

[tampa24]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/rutgers-trial-mb-dharun-ravi-jailed/story?id=15839948#.T1KLeEZ4SFF

Tampa, please continue to comment on your viewing of the trial. It is very helpful.

My pleasure Tim.

This news piece does say that M.B. and Tyler had sexual encounters at all three meetings on the 16th, 19th and 20th. So I was mistaken on that point. but it was the prosecution's goal to make it clear that they had very private, intimate sexual relations during both of Ravi's attempts at video snooping. Thereby reinforcing the invasion of privacy charge.

 

[tim114]

I have read in another article(s) that there was no sex on the first meeting. I believe M.B. got there late and made a point to leave before 2 am, when Ravi was expected to return. So I think you are corrects.

 

[jayshaw]

Tampa, please continue to give us all the information you get from the trial. I would love to view it, but my cable company doesn't carry TRUTV. I have no sympathy for Ravi and hope he gets what he deserves. However, it is such a tragedy for all of the other people touched by this crime.

 

[tim114]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24/dharun-ravi-tyler-clementi-timeline_n_1297056.html

Here is a time line of the events that is helpful.

 

[tim114]

I cannot help but wonder about the timing of Tyler's announcement of his suicide and Ravi's apology to Tyler. The apology came minutes after the announcement.

 

[tim114]

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/03/rutgers_webcam_spying_trial_fr.html

 

[tim114]

Tampa, I am waiting for your take on today's happenings at the trial.

 

[tampa24]

I didn't have time to watch it yesterday. I have to watch the recording today. It's on right now.

One of his Ravi's female friends from high school received many of Ravi's tweets and commented on them with him. After the first viewing on the 19th he tells her that he has aimed the webcam at his own bed and that it will alert him if anyone is on his bed while he's no there. He said, "haha Keep the gays away."

Then in talking about what was going to happen on 21st he tells her that several people on campus who got his tweet about "I dare you to watch my webcam tonight...It's happening again..." were looking forward to seeing it. A few exact quotes here: "Yeah. Mad people are gonna do it." (Watch his webcam later that night.) "Omfg people are having a viewing party with a bottle of Bacardi and beer in this kids room for my roommate." (Apparently it was going to be a ringside seat to the evening's best entertainment on campus.)

As I said the court proceedings run 6 hours long although I try to skim through it faster.

 

[tim114]

Thanks Tampa.

 

[tim114]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...ycam-trial-a-college-prank-or-an-act-of-hate/

 

[tim114]

http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2012/03/dharun_ravi_trial_highlights_n.html

 

[tampa24]

One of Ravi's female friends from high school received many of his tweets and commented on them with him. After the first viewing on the 19th he tells her that he has aimed the webcam at his own bed and that it will alert him if anyone is on his bed while he's not there. He said, "haha Keep the gays away."

Then in talking about what was going to happen on 21st he tells her that several people on campus who got his tweet about "I dare you to watch my webcam tonight...It's happening again..." were looking forward to seeing it.

A few exact quotes here: "Yeah. Mad people are gonna do it." (Watch his webcam later that night.) "Omfg people are having a viewing party with a bottle of Bacardi and beer in this kids room for my roommate." (Apparently it was going to be a ringside seat to the evening's best entertainment on campus.)

Thanks Tim for the references to those last 2 articles. It seems on the face of it to be a terribly long stretch to equate Ravi's actions to the hate crimes level. At least in the sense of comparing his actions to the bashing or murder of gay people...which is one of the things this charge would be used for. (To put on top of other much more serious crimes like murder.)

Having said that, the prosecution came the closest it probably will (in Monday's proceedings) to proving their point with tacking on this charge. Bias intimidation that is. One never knows for sure what a particular jury will do.

A couple more tidbits to come out of Monday's proceedings.... The same girl in another state who Ravi was telling all this to about the webcam viewing has another conversation with him after the suicide. All of this evidence is in the form of tweets that go back and forth between them, He tells her that Tyler committed suicide and she's shocked. He said the police and several guidance counselors came to his room to give him the news. She says she thought he (Tyler) was "fine" and asks Ravi what he thinks happened. Ravi deflects any blame from himself (he also doesn't share that Tyler had complained to the RA and requested a room change) and just says to her that since Tyler was shy and quiet and hadn't made many friends yet (in about 3 weeks of school) that he was probably depressed. And that's why he did it.

She asks him where he is. He says he's at home with his parents. He said that he would stay there "until all this blows over". His roommate is dead. He expresses no grief, sadness or sense of loss over this. He doesn't sound particularly sad about it other than his concern as to how this inconvenience affects him. He doesn't say it outright, but he comes across as indicating that he hopes the whole thing will "blow over" so that he can quickly return to campus and resume classes.

It was a good day for the prosecution.

 

[tim114]

Tampa, thanks for posting your takes on actually watching the testimony. As I mentioned before, Ravi might well explain the first web cam viewing of his roommate. He has no excuse for the second attempt. I think if the prosecution gave him a deal without the bias charges, there would be no trial; he would have taken the deal. It appears to me that he is guilty of invasion of privacy and of hindering an investigation. That is it. The bias charges, in my opinion, are overreaching on the part of the prosecution.

Another Point: You and I have been following this case for awhile. Has the actual trial, where they have to get the facts on record, added to anything we didn't read in the press prior to the trial? I didn't know about the meeting with M.B. on September 16th at the dorm room. I can't remember anything else that wasn't reported on. The case was pretty much tried in the press. I don't think the prosecution has much left to make their case. As for the defense, my guess is character witnesses on behalf of Mr. Ravi, about his NOT being bias toward gay males. Those charges carry serious prison time.

 

[tampa24]

You are right Tim that there has not been "bombshell" new evidence submitted that has not been either brought out in the media or at least speculated on in the press. But then again the charges of invasion of privacy and hindering an investigation have to be proven in court with the actual evidence. I think the prosecution has done a pretty good job with that.

I finally caught up with the testimony from Tuesday's proceedings. About 70% of the 6 hour recording was taken up with coverage of another trial that the network had been covering. But at least the reporters caught the viewers up on what had happened previously, along with the previously recorded video footage of the events in the courtroom.

The more significant thing that changed in the trial so far is that witness testimony by students appears to be over. The state is now calling in expert witnesses to explain the computer forensics on both Tyler's and Ravi's computers at the time. The are tracing back and explaining all of the IM chats on AIM, Twitter, and so on. It gets very technical and boring in the more mundane aspects of the data retrieval.

One of the biggest things to come out of testimony yesterday (Tuesday) was that we know for sure that Tyler found out about both of Ravi's texts. We know this because Tyler had gone to Ravi's public Twitter page and made jpeg screencaps of both the posts talking about, "Saw my roommate kiss another dude.... Yay." And the one about, "I dare you to ichat me between 9:30 and 12:00. Yes. It's happening again." If memory serves, I read elsewhere that someone on the JustUsBoys website had told Tyler to do that very thing for evidence against Ravi. Tyler responded to that person that he already had done that. So at least that has been entered into evidence.

Tyler knew about both posts. Maybe even in real time on the second one. That is, before he had the date on the 21st. That's probably why he knew to disable Ravi's computer. Again nobody is allowed to testify as to Tyler's state of mind in reacting to all of this. Nor are they allowed to talk about conversations they had with him because of hearsay laws protecting the defendant.

That screencap evidence speaks volumes though to the jury about how violated Tyler must have felt by the consequences that Ravi's actions set in motion. Since these 2 posts were on Ravi's "public" Twitter page, then there were no doubt many "public" comments of a very derogatory and insulting nature by some of Ravi's 150 followers that Tyler read also. At first I wondered why some of those responses by others weren't included into evidence, but then I assumed it was because none of those people have been charged with a crime. I can only imagine how crushing it was for Tyler to read all of those public comments to Ravi's posts by people who were strangers to him...or people on campus that he knew only by face. Or not at all.

Did he wonder if he could ever look a student or teacher on the campus in the eye again without wondering if they "knew"? Or that he could ever walk into a classroom again without someone whispering to several people, "That's the guy I've been telling you about." This was a young 18 y/o kid who had only been "out" for about 2-3 months. His coping skills had not had enough time to build up.

The courtroom reporters discussed again the plea deal that Ravi initially turned down. That being: Probation, 600 hours of community service and a promised recommendation to the feds that he not be deported.

There was an important point made there about the deportation though. I and many others I think assumed that he was promised no deportation. But the state of New Jersey can't tell the feds what to do. They can only make a legal recommendation. So deportation was not completely off the table if Ravi signed the plea deal. As the case goes on though the reporters who themselves are trained lawyers, are becoming more and more pessimistic of Ravi's chances here. Not so much that the state will prove the bias intimidation charges. But they are questioning more and more the wisdom of turning down the plea deal.

Thy make a couple of points. A least if he had taken the plea deal it would have sent a message of remorse to Tyler's family. When you plead innocent of everything, as he and his lawyer have done, that sends a bad message to the family of the victim, the community, and of more immediate concern...the jury. They say if the jury sends a guilty verdict on any one or a combination of charges here, that the judge will be under enormous public pressure to mete out a harsh punishment to the extent of the law available within the legal guidelines for those offenses. Very few people following this trial believe that he will get a verdict and judgement more lenient than the plea deal he turned down. At this point they say that turning down that plea deal is looking more and more like a very bad move. Especially given that he really could get prison time. Time will tell.