Mr. Ravi has an arraignment date for May 23, 2011. This is an important case to follow because we will see how our legal system intends to deal with this problem. New Jersey is going all out against Mr. Ravi. If this goes to trial, we will see what the jury thinks.
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Tyler Clementi Suicide Case
- Thread starter tim114
- Start date
Source: LongIslandPress.com May 23,2011)
Mr. Ravi appeared in court today at New Brunswick. He was there with his parents and brother. His attorney, Steven Altman, entered a not guilty plea.
According the authorities Ravi posted: "Found out my roommate is gay" on his Twitter account in early August, linking a thread that Clementi is believed to have posted on a gay community chatroom.
Evidence prosecutors have provided include 88 computer discs, 1600 pages of documents and a list of 125 possible witnesses.
Judge Glenn Berman scheduled a status conference for July 25.
Tim
Mr. Ravi appeared in court today at New Brunswick. He was there with his parents and brother. His attorney, Steven Altman, entered a not guilty plea.
According the authorities Ravi posted: "Found out my roommate is gay" on his Twitter account in early August, linking a thread that Clementi is believed to have posted on a gay community chatroom.
Evidence prosecutors have provided include 88 computer discs, 1600 pages of documents and a list of 125 possible witnesses.
Judge Glenn Berman scheduled a status conference for July 25.
Tim
I can't imagine where all of this evidence comes from. Three people (plus the unknown guy) directly involved. One session with a cam that was watched by Ravi and Wei. Defense attorney said it was not viewed on the internet. Then a second session with a cam that was foiled by Clementi. It appears these events were shared by text messages on the computer. This could greatly multiply the number of people involved. I don't see how these events can generate that amount of evidence.
Tim
Tim
juanjo
BSB Addict
This is a difficult case for all concerned. Like so many legal cases there is a lot of gray area. There is a firm legal doctrine that says that if one acts in wanton disregard or depraved indifference towards another and harm results from that act, the person committing the act can be prosecuted for it. This could be manslaughter or even 2nd degree murder depending on the circumstances.
Ravi deliberately invaded Tyler's privacy and broadcast this to his friends. Maybe he did this out of animosity and perhaps it was simply a really stupid college prank. That doesn't really matter. I don't know if Ravi had some issue with Tyler's sexuality or not and I do not know if this was part of his motivation. I feel uncomfortable with charging bias intimidation but I do not know why this was charged. It is entirely possible that there is information I am not privy to which indicates there was some sort of bias involved in the decisions made by Ravi.
Ravi's life is now ruined but he still has a life and the possibility of redemption. Tyler is dead and his death can be laid directly at Ravi's feet because of Ravi's actions. I do not think he should go to prison but I do think he should face some sort of legal sanction for doing what he did. Perhaps 1000 hours of community service work in with at risk youth would be appropriate.
Ravi deliberately invaded Tyler's privacy and broadcast this to his friends. Maybe he did this out of animosity and perhaps it was simply a really stupid college prank. That doesn't really matter. I don't know if Ravi had some issue with Tyler's sexuality or not and I do not know if this was part of his motivation. I feel uncomfortable with charging bias intimidation but I do not know why this was charged. It is entirely possible that there is information I am not privy to which indicates there was some sort of bias involved in the decisions made by Ravi.
Ravi's life is now ruined but he still has a life and the possibility of redemption. Tyler is dead and his death can be laid directly at Ravi's feet because of Ravi's actions. I do not think he should go to prison but I do think he should face some sort of legal sanction for doing what he did. Perhaps 1000 hours of community service work in with at risk youth would be appropriate.
Juanjo,
Thank you for joining the discussion. It is nice to have an attorney involved.
I see you have two of the same problems with this case that I do: possible 10 years in prison and the bias charges. A possibility of 10 years in prison seems extreme for this situation. Mr. Ravi did not personally harm or murder Mr. Clementi. Mr. Clementi took his own life. So, I guess, this wouldn't even come under manslaughter rules because Mr. Ravi directly did no physical harm to Tyler. Tyler harmed himself. Everyone assumes that Tyler committed suicide because of Mr. Ravi's actions. But we really don't know and maybe never will. I think Mr. Ravi deserves some punishment, but not 10 years of hard time. I think this case is going to be a hard one for our legal system.
I never really saw the point of these bias charges. If we are all equal under the law, then there should be no need for this. And this goes for other cases also. Deal with the criminal deed. Motive does play a part in many trials, but it should not affect the sentence. The defendant could have committed the crime because he was anti-gay, anti-Black or anti-women-with-long-hair. I don't think it matters.
Tim
Thank you for joining the discussion. It is nice to have an attorney involved.
I see you have two of the same problems with this case that I do: possible 10 years in prison and the bias charges. A possibility of 10 years in prison seems extreme for this situation. Mr. Ravi did not personally harm or murder Mr. Clementi. Mr. Clementi took his own life. So, I guess, this wouldn't even come under manslaughter rules because Mr. Ravi directly did no physical harm to Tyler. Tyler harmed himself. Everyone assumes that Tyler committed suicide because of Mr. Ravi's actions. But we really don't know and maybe never will. I think Mr. Ravi deserves some punishment, but not 10 years of hard time. I think this case is going to be a hard one for our legal system.
I never really saw the point of these bias charges. If we are all equal under the law, then there should be no need for this. And this goes for other cases also. Deal with the criminal deed. Motive does play a part in many trials, but it should not affect the sentence. The defendant could have committed the crime because he was anti-gay, anti-Black or anti-women-with-long-hair. I don't think it matters.
Tim
Update:
Dharun Ravi and his lawyer, Steve Altman, were in court today in New Brunswick, NJ. Mr. Altman is attempting to get some charges dismissed because he said that evidence that shows a lack of bias and intimidation was not presented to the grand jury.
Altman also asked prosecutors to turn over other evidence they withheld.
The judge want motions filed by August 10 and set Sept. 9 as the next court date.
Tim
Dharun Ravi and his lawyer, Steve Altman, were in court today in New Brunswick, NJ. Mr. Altman is attempting to get some charges dismissed because he said that evidence that shows a lack of bias and intimidation was not presented to the grand jury.
Altman also asked prosecutors to turn over other evidence they withheld.
The judge want motions filed by August 10 and set Sept. 9 as the next court date.
Tim
I'm certainly no legal expert, but seriously as tragic as Mr. Clementi's choosing to commit suicide was, I don't see how they can charge Mr. Ravi criminally for it unless there is other evidence not discussed.
What Mr. Ravi did was mean, and showed wanton disregard for his room-mate's feelings. But the jury is faced with making a decision based on the laws, and on the evidence presented. Can the prosecution even prove involuntary manslaughter to the jury? It’s my understanding they would have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Mr. Clementi's death was a direct result of Mr. Ravi's actions or inactions. From a medico legal standpoint it appears that Clementi wasn't physically harmed or killed by anyone, instead it appears he chose to kill *himself*.
Unless there is evidence to prove otherwise, to assume that Mr. Clementi died as a result of Ravi's actions would be heresay or speculation. As tragic as it was, suicide was a choice that he made, for himself. There may have been many other underlying issues in Mr. Clementi's mental state of mind that we don't know about, perhaps this outing was the straw that broke the camel's back, but is there evidence to support beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Ravi’s actions or inactions directly resulted in Clementi’s death?
That would set quite a precedent if he Ravi was found guilty of manslaughter. Then think of all who could be criminally prosecuted for "causing" someone to commit suicide. Anytime a suicide occurs, and before death the person blames a specific event for causing their suicide, the party responsible for the event could be found guilty in criminal court based on that precedent. Employers could be found guilty of manslaughter for firing an employee who doesn't perform. An ex husband, wife, girlfriend or boyfriend could be found guilty of manslaughter for serving the spouse with divorce papers or the significant other for breaking up with them. A bank could be found guilty of manslaughter for foreclosing on someone's home. A teacher could be found guilty for failing a student in their class. A parent could be found guilty of manslaughter for calling their kid a failure, or a disappointment…and the list goes on.
As Juanjo points out, there is a firm legal doctrine that says that if one acts in wanton disregard or depraved indifference towards another and harm results from that act, the person committing the act can be prosecuted for it. But what is the definition of “harm”? An example of this could be something like an auto repair facility changes the oil on a customer’s car, the customer refuses a tire rotation, the auto repair technician notices that the lug nuts are loose on one of the tires but does nothing about it and doesn’t warn the customer of this because the customer refused the tire rotation. The customer leaves, and is killed driving down the highway because the tire flies off and he dies after losing control of his vehicle. The auto facility showed disregard or indifference towards the customer by not warning him of a potentially dangerous situation, and harm resulted. But suicide is an act of willful harm inflicted upon self...not inflicted by an outside event or individual. From a legal standpoint, does the definition of “harm” extend out to harm willfully performed on one’s self?
In my opinion there is also the matter of Mr. Clementi’s own lack of care, or stealth if he didn’t want to get caught. If it was so important to him that he not be “found out”, why the heck was he engaging in sexual trysts right there in his dorm room he shared with another person? Just because you ask for privacy certainly does not guarantee you are going to receive it. If it was this big secret he didn’t want anyone to find out about, he should have rented a hotel room...or went to his partner’s place, or went anywhere he could reasonably expect to have total privacy. A college dorm room you share with someone else is just not a very private place. I mean come on, did he expect that no one would see him bring his date in there? He made it clear it was a date, and wanted privacy. He didn’t think anyone else would see him bring the guy in and then leave with him? The neighbors wouldn’t hear any kissing, or other noises associated with romance?
And he didn’t do it just once either. From what I’ve read on here he did it again, *after* knowing he was caught the first time. Mr. Clementi’s actions just do not seem very reasonable to me if he truly wanted to remain totally in the closet and he certainly was not using any common sense by behaving in a more stealthy manner. He was wide open for being caught on more than one occasion. If Clementi wanted such privacy and didn’t want anyone to find him out, it does not appear he was not exercising caution either time he was “caught”.
At the end of the day, Mr. Ravi did a very mean, selfish, thoughtless thing by spying on and subsequently outing Mr. Clementi publicly. But did he really commit a crime other than perhaps illegal wiretapping or something like that? Tampa, when you mentioned hate crime, where is the proof of any crime other than illegal wiretapping or invasion of privacy? Did Ravi threaten Clementi or physically harm him? Did Clementi fear for his safety because of threats made by Ravi? There could be additional information not mentioned here but it appears any physical harm was done by Mr. Clementi, to himself, by taking his own life.
This doesn't mean that they can't try to go after Ravi later in civil court, and try for a wrongful death suit. But even that may present significant challenges, because again, Mr. Clementi *chose* to kill himself. I sincerely doubt that Mr. Ravi's actions were the sole reason Clementi chose to commit suicide. There had to be many other issues there that we don’t know about and which probably cannot be proven. Especially in light of Mr. Clementi’s own disregard for the danger of getting caught doing something he claimed he didn’t want others to know about.
This is not the 1940's where being outed as gay has the implications that they did many years ago. Of course it's traumatic when you are outed unwillingly, but it's not the end of the world. It's so tragic and unfortunate that Mr. Clementi didn't reach out to friends, classmates, family, even professional help so that he could have received the support, love, and friendship he could have benefitted from. It’s unclear if Ravi’s actions were a result of malice towards Clementi, or simply a college prank.
Just because the prosecution is apparently trying to throw the book at Mr. Ravi doesn't mean the jury will agree, even a completely sympathetic jury. It's my understanding that in a criminal case, the courts aren't there to decide whether what the defendant did is right or wrong, instead they have to decide whether there is sufficient evidence to convict him. And since the defendant is presumed innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof rests squarely on the prosecution.
It appears there may be sufficient evidence to convict Mr. Ravi of illegal wiretapping or something along those lines, but I just don't see how they can prove Ravi's actions (or inactions) killed Clementi.
Abe
What Mr. Ravi did was mean, and showed wanton disregard for his room-mate's feelings. But the jury is faced with making a decision based on the laws, and on the evidence presented. Can the prosecution even prove involuntary manslaughter to the jury? It’s my understanding they would have to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Mr. Clementi's death was a direct result of Mr. Ravi's actions or inactions. From a medico legal standpoint it appears that Clementi wasn't physically harmed or killed by anyone, instead it appears he chose to kill *himself*.
Unless there is evidence to prove otherwise, to assume that Mr. Clementi died as a result of Ravi's actions would be heresay or speculation. As tragic as it was, suicide was a choice that he made, for himself. There may have been many other underlying issues in Mr. Clementi's mental state of mind that we don't know about, perhaps this outing was the straw that broke the camel's back, but is there evidence to support beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Ravi’s actions or inactions directly resulted in Clementi’s death?
That would set quite a precedent if he Ravi was found guilty of manslaughter. Then think of all who could be criminally prosecuted for "causing" someone to commit suicide. Anytime a suicide occurs, and before death the person blames a specific event for causing their suicide, the party responsible for the event could be found guilty in criminal court based on that precedent. Employers could be found guilty of manslaughter for firing an employee who doesn't perform. An ex husband, wife, girlfriend or boyfriend could be found guilty of manslaughter for serving the spouse with divorce papers or the significant other for breaking up with them. A bank could be found guilty of manslaughter for foreclosing on someone's home. A teacher could be found guilty for failing a student in their class. A parent could be found guilty of manslaughter for calling their kid a failure, or a disappointment…and the list goes on.
As Juanjo points out, there is a firm legal doctrine that says that if one acts in wanton disregard or depraved indifference towards another and harm results from that act, the person committing the act can be prosecuted for it. But what is the definition of “harm”? An example of this could be something like an auto repair facility changes the oil on a customer’s car, the customer refuses a tire rotation, the auto repair technician notices that the lug nuts are loose on one of the tires but does nothing about it and doesn’t warn the customer of this because the customer refused the tire rotation. The customer leaves, and is killed driving down the highway because the tire flies off and he dies after losing control of his vehicle. The auto facility showed disregard or indifference towards the customer by not warning him of a potentially dangerous situation, and harm resulted. But suicide is an act of willful harm inflicted upon self...not inflicted by an outside event or individual. From a legal standpoint, does the definition of “harm” extend out to harm willfully performed on one’s self?
In my opinion there is also the matter of Mr. Clementi’s own lack of care, or stealth if he didn’t want to get caught. If it was so important to him that he not be “found out”, why the heck was he engaging in sexual trysts right there in his dorm room he shared with another person? Just because you ask for privacy certainly does not guarantee you are going to receive it. If it was this big secret he didn’t want anyone to find out about, he should have rented a hotel room...or went to his partner’s place, or went anywhere he could reasonably expect to have total privacy. A college dorm room you share with someone else is just not a very private place. I mean come on, did he expect that no one would see him bring his date in there? He made it clear it was a date, and wanted privacy. He didn’t think anyone else would see him bring the guy in and then leave with him? The neighbors wouldn’t hear any kissing, or other noises associated with romance?
And he didn’t do it just once either. From what I’ve read on here he did it again, *after* knowing he was caught the first time. Mr. Clementi’s actions just do not seem very reasonable to me if he truly wanted to remain totally in the closet and he certainly was not using any common sense by behaving in a more stealthy manner. He was wide open for being caught on more than one occasion. If Clementi wanted such privacy and didn’t want anyone to find him out, it does not appear he was not exercising caution either time he was “caught”.
At the end of the day, Mr. Ravi did a very mean, selfish, thoughtless thing by spying on and subsequently outing Mr. Clementi publicly. But did he really commit a crime other than perhaps illegal wiretapping or something like that? Tampa, when you mentioned hate crime, where is the proof of any crime other than illegal wiretapping or invasion of privacy? Did Ravi threaten Clementi or physically harm him? Did Clementi fear for his safety because of threats made by Ravi? There could be additional information not mentioned here but it appears any physical harm was done by Mr. Clementi, to himself, by taking his own life.
This doesn't mean that they can't try to go after Ravi later in civil court, and try for a wrongful death suit. But even that may present significant challenges, because again, Mr. Clementi *chose* to kill himself. I sincerely doubt that Mr. Ravi's actions were the sole reason Clementi chose to commit suicide. There had to be many other issues there that we don’t know about and which probably cannot be proven. Especially in light of Mr. Clementi’s own disregard for the danger of getting caught doing something he claimed he didn’t want others to know about.
This is not the 1940's where being outed as gay has the implications that they did many years ago. Of course it's traumatic when you are outed unwillingly, but it's not the end of the world. It's so tragic and unfortunate that Mr. Clementi didn't reach out to friends, classmates, family, even professional help so that he could have received the support, love, and friendship he could have benefitted from. It’s unclear if Ravi’s actions were a result of malice towards Clementi, or simply a college prank.
Just because the prosecution is apparently trying to throw the book at Mr. Ravi doesn't mean the jury will agree, even a completely sympathetic jury. It's my understanding that in a criminal case, the courts aren't there to decide whether what the defendant did is right or wrong, instead they have to decide whether there is sufficient evidence to convict him. And since the defendant is presumed innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof rests squarely on the prosecution.
It appears there may be sufficient evidence to convict Mr. Ravi of illegal wiretapping or something along those lines, but I just don't see how they can prove Ravi's actions (or inactions) killed Clementi.
Abe
Update:
On Thursday, a motion was filed in New Brunswick asking for all charges to be dropped.
Sept. 19: Ravi claims he tuned on his webcam to check on the safety of his iPad. It was on for two seconds.
Sept. 22: Ravi claims his Twitter posting inviting friends to watch a second encounter was just a joke. It never took place.
Google Dharun Ravi - Click on News - Use NJ.com(The Star-Ledger). This is our local paper.
Some new data:
Clementi told his family he was gay shortly before leaving for college. Mother didn't take it well.
There was tension between the two roommates from the start.
Ravi found out Tyler was gay using his email address.
On Sept. 19, only Ravi and Wei saw Tyler and his date. They stopped watching, but turned it on again when four other students walked in.
On Sept. 21, Ravi attempted to use the webcam again. He used other students' computers to check the setup prior to the second attempt.
Tim
On Thursday, a motion was filed in New Brunswick asking for all charges to be dropped.
Sept. 19: Ravi claims he tuned on his webcam to check on the safety of his iPad. It was on for two seconds.
Sept. 22: Ravi claims his Twitter posting inviting friends to watch a second encounter was just a joke. It never took place.
Google Dharun Ravi - Click on News - Use NJ.com(The Star-Ledger). This is our local paper.
Some new data:
Clementi told his family he was gay shortly before leaving for college. Mother didn't take it well.
There was tension between the two roommates from the start.
Ravi found out Tyler was gay using his email address.
On Sept. 19, only Ravi and Wei saw Tyler and his date. They stopped watching, but turned it on again when four other students walked in.
On Sept. 21, Ravi attempted to use the webcam again. He used other students' computers to check the setup prior to the second attempt.
Tim
I see two conflicts here:
Sept. 19: It appears we are now up to six people who viewed the webcam. It was not broadcast on the internet.
Sept. 22: It certainly seems Ravi had plans to do it a second time. He may have an intent to broadcast this session. It didn't happen.
So I guess we have invasion of privacy and attempted invasion of privacy.
Tim
Sept. 19: It appears we are now up to six people who viewed the webcam. It was not broadcast on the internet.
Sept. 22: It certainly seems Ravi had plans to do it a second time. He may have an intent to broadcast this session. It didn't happen.
So I guess we have invasion of privacy and attempted invasion of privacy.
Tim
Isn't an invasion of privacy complaint about as severe a crime as a parking ticket? If they try to go after invasion of privacy, I'm curious who the plaintiff would be since the would be complainant is, unfortunately, deceased.
I'm surprised they don't try to go after a more severe charge such as illegal wiretapping. Or would a phone line actually need to be tapped in order for an illegal wiretapping indictment to stick?
Abe
I ran across a comment from an article on this case. You know, where the readers add their comments to the news story. The poster claims to have read some of the 700 page filing from the defense. He claims that he found evidence that Molly Wei turned on the cam a second time (Sept. 19th, first attempt)
with other girls in the room. Ravi was taking a shower and not in the room. If this is the case, Molly should be charged with invasion privacy also.
Tim
with other girls in the room. Ravi was taking a shower and not in the room. If this is the case, Molly should be charged with invasion privacy also.
Tim
Update:
From Philly.com
Prosecutors filed a 59-page motion Thursday. This is in response to a defense motion asking that all charges be dropped. Some points:
"Ravi texted and sent messages to others encouraging them to watch, and repeated the process when Clementi, of Ridgewood, N.J., again met with M.B. on Sept. 21, authorities say."
"Wei has testified that Ravi came to her room Sept. 19 and they watched Clementi and M.B. kiss and grope each other. She said others came to her room later that night and also viewed the encounter."
"Each viewing, she said, only lasted a few seconds."
(Note: I do not remember reading that Ravi invited anyone to view anything online the first time. I don't think any images went online. That appears to the plan the second encounter, which didn't happen.)
Also prosecutors opposed defense request seeking M.B.'s identity and notes Clementi left on his computer.
Tim
From Philly.com
Prosecutors filed a 59-page motion Thursday. This is in response to a defense motion asking that all charges be dropped. Some points:
"Ravi texted and sent messages to others encouraging them to watch, and repeated the process when Clementi, of Ridgewood, N.J., again met with M.B. on Sept. 21, authorities say."
"Wei has testified that Ravi came to her room Sept. 19 and they watched Clementi and M.B. kiss and grope each other. She said others came to her room later that night and also viewed the encounter."
"Each viewing, she said, only lasted a few seconds."
(Note: I do not remember reading that Ravi invited anyone to view anything online the first time. I don't think any images went online. That appears to the plan the second encounter, which didn't happen.)
Also prosecutors opposed defense request seeking M.B.'s identity and notes Clementi left on his computer.
Tim
Update:
Ravi had an appearance before Judge Berman on Friday. Berman did not dismiss any of the 15 counts. A hearing was scheduled for October 20 where a trial date is expected to be set. Berman ruled that the defense could have the name of M.B., the man with Clementi during the invasion of privacy. However, Berman pointed out that M.B. does not have to speak to the defense team. The judge did not rule on the defense motions to get access to notes supposedly written by Clementi or to his computer. He also didn't rule of giving access to information gathered by the Port of Authority.
Tim
Ravi had an appearance before Judge Berman on Friday. Berman did not dismiss any of the 15 counts. A hearing was scheduled for October 20 where a trial date is expected to be set. Berman ruled that the defense could have the name of M.B., the man with Clementi during the invasion of privacy. However, Berman pointed out that M.B. does not have to speak to the defense team. The judge did not rule on the defense motions to get access to notes supposedly written by Clementi or to his computer. He also didn't rule of giving access to information gathered by the Port of Authority.
Tim
Well it looks like Ravi is going to trial based on all 15 counts. I must say I am a bit surprised by this. I also don't get all the fuss over access to Clementi notes and his computer. Also concerning information gathered by the Port of Authority. Anyone know what is going on regarding this?
Tim
Tim
Thanks so much for keeping us updated on this Tim. Obviously many of us will want to follow these proceeding and the actual trial with great interest. I am also surprised that they will put him on trial on all 15 counts. While some of them are being used to make a point, as we've discussed...many of them will more than likely not hold up legally in court. He definitely won't be convicted on all of them. In fact it seems most likely that he won't even be found guilty of a majority of them. But then again that's why you follow the case in the first place...to find out.
On Wednesday, M.B., Tyler Clementi's partner, filed a motion asking the judge to reverse an order to turn over his name to the defense. The order was made during the last court appearance. It appears that this was not done. On Oct. 20, Judge Berman is expected to rule on this motion and to set the date for the trail. Ravi's attorney filed a motion asking the judge to recluse himself. Berman is a cousin to Lisa Gregorisch-Demsey, creator of HSR, a reality show on the CW network.
Tim
Tim
angelone
BSB Addict
Boy, this is more complicated than I thought. I just hope that justice comes through from all this maze of complexities.
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