obama's speech

[rapper]

Oh dear . . .

smack that!!! i think the speech was great. he addressed a lot of the misinformation and spelled out a lot of specifics. i know some will still disagree, but bottom line, we have to do something. the US cannot afford the health care system we currently have. and the government should provide health care to those who cannot afford it any other way. "the government should do for the people what the people cannot do for themselves"

If you like the way Gov's handled Fannie Mae, The Federal Reserve system, Ginnie Mae, Hundreds of medium and large banks and investment houses, Medicare, Medicaide, Social Security and their on Senate Cafeteria (verging on bankrupty) and our U.S. car manufacturers and steel mills, you'll love what they do to the best medical system in the world.

 

[mikeyank]

If you like the way Gov's handled Fannie Mae, The Federal Reserve system, Ginnie Mae, Hundreds of medium and large banks and investment houses, Medicare, Medicaide, Social Security and their on Senate Cafeteria (verging on bankrupty) and our U.S. car manufacturers and steel mills, you'll love what they do to the best medical system in the world.

It may be the "best medical system in the world", if you can afford it. What about the uninsured in this nation today? And calling it the best in the world is also subjective. Reform of the current system is sorely needed.

 

[tampa24]

It may be the "best medical system in the world", if you can afford it. What about the uninsured in this nation today? And calling it the best in the world is also subjective. Reform of the current system is sorely needed.

Great points Mike. If it really was the best medical system in the world we wouldn't be having any of this conversation.

It's NOT the best medical system in the world for many reasons. Not the least of which is the fact that millions of Americans can't afford access to it. Or are going bankrupt themselves trying to.

"Best medical system in the world" is just one of those rhetorical talking points thrown out there by the right. And the insurance companies...

 

[rapper]

Obama is a Marxist and he has BIG plans for this country. The more confusion, upset and problems we can have the easier it is for him to work his magic. As we have already seen, people more easily give up their freedoms when they are scared. We'll be lucky if we have a functioning two party system left in eight years.

 

[tampa24]

I'm not going to dignify that with a response.

 

[slimvintage]

Obama is a Marxist and he has BIG plans for this country. The more confusion, upset and problems we can have the easier it is for him to work his magic. As we have already seen, people more easily give up their freedoms when they are scared. We'll be lucky if we have a functioning two party system left in eight years.

Man get real: your kind of rhetoric insures that we will continue to have enormous divides between left and right, something of a guarantee that there will be a peppy and vibrant two party system for the foreseeable future.

In fact I love the idea that you acknowledge, only 8 months into his presidency, that he'll be in office for 8 years. Talk about a Freudian slip. Or maybe just a recognition of his magic.

 

[mikeyank]

Obama is a Marxist and he has BIG plans for this country. The more confusion, upset and problems we can have the easier it is for him to work his magic. As we have already seen, people more easily give up their freedoms when they are scared. We'll be lucky if we have a functioning two party system left in eight years.

With that statement, you have shown your true colors. I will not dignify any more of your remarks on politics with any comment, as we now know exactly where you are coming from. We have freedom of speech in this country, and you can say whatever you like, just like the right wing "nuts" on Fox and the talk radio rabble rousers, but quite frankly I do find that kind of talk to be quite disturbing. But God Bless America, and all of our freedoms.

 

[tampa24]

God bless America and thank God we all have the right to say whatever we want.

 

[rapper]

Oops!

I'm not going to dignify that with a response.

Sorry to rumple your feathers. I usually avoid political discussions. Of course, you know there are other points of view . . . I will now drag my knuckles back towards the cave. Let us move on . . . .

 

[tampa24]

We indeed can move on Rapper. Even though our politics are divergent we can still chat amiably on many other topics with each other. And I mean we as in most of the rest of us in the forum.

I do fear for the future of the country when we are getting so polarized by the 24 hour news cycles and radio shows that have to sensationalize and endlessly cover every political gaffe or controversy. The country's economic, political and even military strength is in extreme crisis right now. Our status as a superpower is on the line.

Instead of seeing people rallying together to deal with the mess there is just more polarizing, name calling, and placing of blame on the political opposition. I fear we are entering into a Civil Cold War. Where we demonize and dehumanize anyone we see as not agreeing with our own politics. Or even worse...those who disagree with our own political messiahs like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Ann Coulter, Dick Cheney.

I'm trying to think of some blowhards of the left who have the influence of the those on the right. But I'm at a loss. I can think of Jessie Jackson. But Ariana Huffington, James Carville, etc. are not even in the same league. I know that will bring many conservatives in here to point out that the left can never get any successful talk radio shows to survive in the marketplace. And they would have a valid point there.

Please don't stay in the cave.

 

[thomas1023]

Not only that, but the entire denigrating thrust of the right in this whole argument, couched by them in purely monetary terms, misses the point completely. It's actually not a question of what it costs, it's finally a question of what's right, what's civilized and what's humane. The fact that Obamacare will be cost-effective in the long run, and provide coverage for millions more, shouldn't even be crucial to the argument.

As far as future debt is concerned (burdening our grandchildren et cetera), either you believe that reform can truly save money, or you seek solace in the fact that most of the debt that the right whines piously and unconvincingly about, is "fictitious" anyway, and can be healthily lived with on an ongoing basis.

The right wing of American politics is useful for some things. Their great dilemma right now is that they are entirely beside the point at this juncture in the history of US two party politics. The most noble thing they could do is to move over and let the left solve this in humane terms as the social problem that it is, and wait their turn.

Slim -

I think in a larger view, you have pointed out one of the most difficult problems the right has in attempting to argue a point against the left. It is the difference between a logical vs emotional arguement.

How could anyone say no to public (government) education, SCHIP (health insurance for 'poor' children), Medicare, etc. After all, it's for the children....it's for the elderly....it's for the poor. How could anyone be against that?!?

My only aguement would be to look at the past history and draw logical conclusions from that. How could I ever win against an emotion? Not much chance. Buy here goes with a few examples...

War on Poverty: Since the 60's when the 'War on Poverty' was announced, how many hundreds of billions (or are we in the trillions?) of dollars has been siezed from those who produce and given to those who don't? Poverty rate then, 10%, now 10%. Meanwhile, look at what has been done to minorty and poor familes: higher single parent familes, higher drop out rates, higher incarseration rates...how could this be? We only wanted to 'help'!!! Not to get too religious or 'moral', but, that mean conservative response would be: 'Give someone a fish, and they'll eat for a day. Teach someone to fish, and they'll eat for a lifetime!!!' So, I wonder which of these two options is the most moral and humane?

Free College Education: That's been a good one that's come up the last couple of years. These students have worked hard (in our failing public schools), how will they ever be able to work above a minmum wage with out a college education? We'll just give them a 'free' college education....because, we care. So, my 'moral' arguement for this (or fill in your favorite government program) is:

Boy, times are rough. I don't think I'll be able to afford to send my children to college. I know, my neighbor down the street is prettly welth, I'll take my gun over there and demand $X from him because, he can afford it, and....after all....it for a good cause, educating my child. (No, that would be wrong. After all, wasn't that against one of those top 10 suggestions by God? Something like, thou shalt not steel?)

Or, we could vote for a politician to have the government take the money from my neighbor and then give it to me for my children's education. After all, the government is the only legal entity in this nation which can use force to take property from an individual. That would be okay since I'm using a third party to get the money for me.

Sorry, I don't see much difference between the two....which is the 'moral' choice?

Taxes: This one will be fun!

How are we going to pay for X Program. We'll tax those mean, evil, greedy rich people. After all, they need to pay their fare share!

(Note: these stats are from early 2000's)

Those top 1%, who are to pay for everything, paid 34% of the Income Tax. If I remember correctly, they only 'earn' 18% of the income. (Wouldn't it be more 'fair' to have them only pay 18% of the Federal Income Taxes.) Top 5% pay 53%, Top 10% pay 65%, Top 25% pay 85%. The bottom 50% pay less than 3%. Or, the bottom 43% of wage earners, pay no Federal Income Tax. By now, that has to be a higher percentage. So, why would the governemnt constantly want to include more and more of the middle class in its programs, to push that number over 50%. (SCHIPs is now for a family of 4 who earn $80K!!!) Imagine fifty percent (or more) of the wage earners paying no federal income tax. There will never be a government program which will not pass and never, ever a tax cut again. Don't worry, most of the benefit will still go to those who have no stake in our Federal Government (that's, pay no income taxes).

After all, that's 'fair'! They can 'afford' it. I forget which Democratic Congressman said, 'after all, they just happen to win life's lottery'!!! That's it, they just woke up and Shazam!, I happen to be getting a couple of hundred thousand a year. It's not like I sacrificed for my family and worked 80+ hours a week, risked my capital (money), and then, after 10, 15 20 or more years, I finally became successful. (I though that used to be called something like, the American Dream). No, I was just 'lucky'!!! I didn't earn it. It's not mine.

So, I guess back to a 'moral' arguement. One of the main tools of the left is one of 'class envy'. Look at that person, he makes so much, he has more than you do...it's not fair. How many times have the wealthy (successful) been maligned, and I'm not talking about mega wealthy like Maddof and other crooks (like Geither or Rangel)). They only cheated to get where they are. However, most have followed the rules. So, what is this class envy? Again, not to get too religious (moral), another one of those suggestions I think was, thou shalt not covet. I wonder why that one was there. Maybe, one shouldn't look at what another has, but pay attention and work to take care of your needs. Sort of leading to that Individual Responsibility again, which no politican will ever mention.

In closing, just because I want the government too be limited in it's role in 'helping' people, by no way would get me off the hook from helping my fellow man. I think I could do so much more if I was able to keep more of what I earned, instead of going after one failed program after the other. If there were a 'top 10' government programs which said, here's the problem, here's what we did to solve the problem, and now that it's solve, we can now stop the program. No government program has ever gone away, their help has worsened the problem and it will only grow and grow.

 

[rapper]

But of course . . .

We indeed can move on Rapper. Even though our politics are divergent we can still chat amiably on many other topics with each other. And I mean we as in most of the rest of us in the forum.

I do fear for the future of the country when we are getting so polarized by the 24 hour news cycles and radio shows that have to sensationalize and endlessly cover every political gaffe or controversy. The country's economic, political and even military strength is in extreme crisis right now. Our status as a superpower is on the line.

Instead of seeing people rallying together to deal with the mess there is just more polarizing, name calling, and placing of blame on the political opposition. I fear we are entering into a Civil Cold War. Where we demonize and dehumanize anyone we see as not agreeing with our own politics. Or even worse...those who disagree with our own political messiahs like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Ann Coulter, Dick Cheney.

I'm trying to think of some blowhards of the left who have the influence of the those on the right. But I'm at a loss. I can think of Jessie Jackson. But Ann Huffington, James Carville, etc. are not even in the same league. I know that will bring many conservatives in here to point out that the left can never get any successful talk radio shows to survive in the marketplace. And they would have a valid point there.

Please don't stay in the cave.

Tampa: My cave visits are brief. Yes, we will proceed. I think you can agree that we are living in most interesting times. Major shifts all around us. Now, back to viewing the hunks . . .

 

[rapper]

Good try, Thomas

Here's some fun to look at and do some math to look at what percent of our buget is being spent on what. For instance, the interest on the debt ($332B) as a percent of total tax revenue ($1,458B) is about 23%. Medicare/Medicade ($435B) is about 30%. Social Security ($449B) is about 31%. Defence is about 38%. These four items only bring us $315B over budget. (Spent 121% of our current income.)

Our current debt of $2,770B vs current tax revenue of $1,448 is only over budget by $1,312B.

What ever you do, don't look at our unfunded mandates (Social Security, Medicare, etc)!!!!

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Good try, Thomas. Some of us know what you are saying . . .

 

[tampa24]

Here's some fun to look at and do some math to look at what percent of our buget is being spent on what. For instance, the interest on the debt ($332B) as a percent of total tax revenue ($1,458B) is about 23%. Medicare/Medicade ($435B) is about 30%. Social Security ($449B) is about 31%. Defence is about 38%. These four items only bring us $315B over budget. (Spent 121% of our current income.)

Our current debt of $2,770B vs current tax revenue of $1,448 is only over budget by $1,312B.

What ever you do, don't look at our unfunded mandates (Social Security, Medicare, etc)!!!!

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

You are quite right about all of these problems Thomas. Including the out of control size of government. The size of the underfunded government programs, unfunded mandates, etc... I just don't trust the conservative Republicans to fix them. They talk a good game...now that they're out of office. They beat the drum of fiscal restraint now and want us to believe that if we only did it their way and put them back in power that they would lead us to the Promised Land.

They want us to forget that we just got off of nearly a decade of a very "conservative" presidency and a legislature dominated by Republicans for most of that time. I say "conservative" because the Republicans showed no fiscal restraint whatsoever when they controlled the nation's purse strings. Bush never vetoed a single spending bill sent to him by the Republican controlled Congress. The Republicans spent like drunken sailors. The size of government swelled. And the deficit along with the National Debt soared. So now the Republicans want us to forget that they have a humongous deficit of credibility to go with the mountain of debt they left us with from the last decade.

 

[tim114]

This is a good thread. It deals with major issues facing our nation. I think we are at a point in our history where we all have to get up to speed on issues and not leave the decision making up the the politicians. They are thinking in a time frame of two years (the election cycle). This time frame is not going to work for programs like Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc. The time frame is decades, not two years. States have the same problem with pensions and health care. Has the Federal government and state governments promised more than they can possibly deliver? This is a national discussion I would like to see, but instead we get sound bites. We get government estimates of how financially sound all these programs are. Prior to the meltdown of our financial system, everything was just fine. Either our elected representatives are stupid or just not telling us the truth.

Short post. Love to hear your thinking on all of this. Keep the thread alive.

Tim

 

[rapper]

I said I wouldn't do it . . .

You are quite right about all of these problems Thomas. Including the out of control size of government. The size of the underfunded government programs, unfunded mandates, etc... I just don't trust the conservative Republicans to fix them. They talk a good game...now that they're out of office. They beat the drum of fiscal restraint now and want us to believe that if we only did it their way and put them back in power that they would lead us to the Promised Land.

They want us to forget that we just got off of nearly a decade of a very "conservative" presidency and a legislature dominated by Republicans for most of that time. I say "conservative" because the Republicans showed no fiscal restraint whatsoever when they controlled than nation's purse strings. Bush never vetoed a single spending bill sent to him by the Republican controlled Congress. The Republicans spent like drunken sailors. The size of government swelled. And the deficit along with the National Debt soared. So now the Republicans want us to forget that they have a humongous deficit of credibility to go with the mountain of debt they left us with from the last decade.

Tampa, I couldn't agree more about the "Republicans." The past Presidential contest was the worst I have ever seen. It was a Non-contest. Unfortunately, the Republicans no longer stand for anything. The voters have to get over the idea that the parties represent differing points of view. It is now accepted practice that in a campaign, you say anything to get elected and then don't deliver. What Washington doesn't want you to notice is that members of Congress no longer represent their constituents. They represent special interest groups. Essentially, "Say what is necessary to the rubes, and then return to D.C. and make a deal." What you have is a bunch of fat rich old politicians scratching to keep their golden jobs. Congress needs to be largely REPLACED through the electoral process. Does anyone even remember what this country is all about ???? 'Bama wants to solve the problem by establishing a European Socialist system here. That isn't a fix, it's another problem.

 

[tampa24]

Tampa, I couldn't agree more about the "Republicans." The past Presidential contest was the worst I have ever seen. It was a Non-contest. Unfortunately, the Republicans no longer stand for anything. The voters have to get over the idea that the parties represent differing points of view. It is now accepted practice that in a campaign, you say anything to get elected and then don't deliver. What Washington doesn't want you to notice is that members of Congress no longer represent their constituents. They represent special interest groups. Essentially, "Say what is necessary to the rubes, and then return to D.C. and make a deal." What you have is a bunch of fat rich old politicians scratching to keep their golden jobs. Congress needs to be largely REPLACED through the electoral process. Does anyone even remember what this country is all about ???? 'Bama wants to solve the problem by establishing a European Socialist system here. That isn't a fix, it's another problem.

I'm glad we can agree on a few things Rapper! I'm very disillusioned with the whole 2 party system as it stands right now. I hated hearing this expression in past decades because I thought it was overly cynical. But we have the best government money can buy. They seem incapable of solving any long term problems. Think energy efficiency, oil dependency, new fuel technology, healthcare, climate change, Social Security Trust Fund.... Just to name a few.

We're at a point where hollow sound bites and talking points are considered to be grown up conversations. The propaganda we get from the left and right is mind numbing. They do little in the way of moving along public discourse to finding common ground and agreement on ways to solve the nation's problems.

As far as healthcare in particular though it is not enough to simply be opposed to whatever the other side proposes. The Republicans have had years to solve the inequities of the healthcare system and did little. With the notable exception of adding a costly and flawed prescription drug coverage to Medicare. It's not enough to simply stonewall any reform Obama tries to make. They need to be putting forward solutions of their own in response so that there could be some genuine reform of the healthcare system. Right now they are bankrupt of ideas so they are waging a smear campaign. If the current healthcare plan is so awful how would they propose to fix it? We haven't heard anything articulated from the right that comes close to a serious compromise plan.

The responsibilities of being put in the minority party of government by democratic election are great. Being the party of loyal opposition still requires you to put the interests of the country first and foremost. Right now...to put it mildly I'm not seeing enough of it. Being the party of loyal opposition should stand for a whole lot more than heckling and stonewalling whatever the president or majority party proposes.

 

[slimvintage]

Tampa, I couldn't agree more about the "Republicans." The past Presidential contest was the worst I have ever seen. It was a Non-contest. Unfortunately, the Republicans no longer stand for anything. The voters have to get over the idea that the parties represent differing points of view. It is now accepted practice that in a campaign, you say anything to get elected and then don't deliver. What Washington doesn't want you to notice is that members of Congress no longer represent their constituents. They represent special interest groups. Essentially, "Say what is necessary to the rubes, and then return to D.C. and make a deal." What you have is a bunch of fat rich old politicians scratching to keep their golden jobs. Congress needs to be largely REPLACED through the electoral process. Does anyone even remember what this country is all about ???? 'Bama wants to solve the problem by establishing a European Socialist system here. That isn't a fix, it's another problem.

In the shitty situation you describe it's no wonder that the country now couches it's political options much more in "moral", "ethical" and "emotional" terms (take note Thomas), and a little less in so called logic, the right turning to fundamentalist Christianity and "patriotism" and the left to Humanism. Politics seen through these lenses places questions such as a putative "deficit" farther down the list than it probably should be, but these are extraordinary times...

...in which the most shamefully cynical and morally corrupt administration since Nixon's has just left office, obliging the opposing party to attempt a massive clean up operation, treading new ground and remedying the outcomes of discredited solutions.

I taught for several years and in various European institutions a course called "Experiments in Applied Creativity". Original problem solving, somewhere along the line, requires risk taking, or what we call the "creative leap". To succeed in its goals it requires intelligence of course, and vision, as well as knowledge and calculation. It's hampered by fear.

We are now in the US at exactly the point were the unimaginative, the fearful, the excuse makers, are trying to put the brakes on initiatives for progress and the greater good, out of cowardice on the one hand and partisan rancor on the other.

It was obvious from here by early summer 2007 that Obama was going to be elected by quite a margin. It is amazing to me that the same political grouping who screwed the country for so long, in almost every single way possible, are now, such a short time into the opposition's administration, positioning themselves for a try at scuppering the creative solutions to their monumental fuck ups during Bushy. The right at other junctures in American politics has served the nation nobly and courageously. At the moment, and certainly in its most extreme form, it's nothing more, really nothing more, than a band of intellectually bankrupt yahoos, powerless except to trash the efforts of their moral betters.

 

[tampa24]

Bravo Slim!

In early August there was a town hall meeting on healthcare reform called by Rep. Kathy Castor (D) FL. It was held in Tampa in the historic section of Ybor City. This was a test case for the national Republican party as to how well they could assemble large crowds to protest at these meetings. And also to gauge how well the tactics would be received by their base. They were so pleased with their results that they rolled out the "angry mobs" nationwide at just about every healthcare event sponsored by a Democrat.

They tried to portray these mobs as spontaneous groups of people worried about healthcare reform. They finally dropped all pretense of that. The people who showed up to protest in Tampa told the local media that they had been advised of the event through Tampa 912 by email. A group which is asssociated with Glenn Beck. They also said they got calls and emails from the Hillsborough County Republican Party.

The protest crowds showed up with placards and posters denouncing Obama and showing him with the face of the Joker. Inside the meeting room when Castor tried to speak, rather than asking questions that would move the debate to issues with the plan that they had concerns with...they simply shouted her down. They came with no intelligent questions to express their fears and get answers about the proposed healthcare plan. They came only with sound bites (and heckles) provided to them in advance from Glenn Beck and the Republican party.

Inside the conference room they shouted: "Read the plan! Read the plan! Read the plan!" This is America! This is America!" They succeeded in disrupting the whole event inside the room. Outside the room in the hallways it was more of the same. Outside the building more of the angry mob was shoving posters against the windows of the conference room. They were screaming and shouting to keep the noise level inside the room at a constant dull roar.

The following clip has remarks about ACORN causing the trouble there. There is no evidence in the video that anyone from ACORN was even there. ACORN is a liberal action committee that finds itself under investigation and controversy right now. So the person who titled this video decided to take a cheap at them in the process.

Far from finding this spectacle of mob metality to be a heartwarming example of free speech and democracy in action...I merely find it sad and pathetic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnT3Uevy5rU&feature=platlist&p=A27A93Ce429E6&index=0&playnext=1

 

[tim114]

Tampa,

You have written about the inability of both major parties to deal with the concerns that affect us all. That seems to be a theme going through this thread. With that in mind, I don't know why you object to voters getting involved.

Maybe from your point of view, these voters are on the wrong side of the issue. Maybe the protesters were a bit uncivil. They are using "sound bites" against the "sound bites" they are getting from their elected officials. All useless.

We have not even started the debate on health care reform. I would like to see all Americans voice their opinions on this issue and let our politicians know we are paying attention. I don't want to deal with a 1000 page bill that has a lot of fine print. That fine print is where our politicians reward their boys and girls and screw the rest of us. Let's debate this issue for as long as it takes and get it right. A nice 30 page bill, typed in caps, would be nice.

Tim