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Circumcision ban

joeychuck2

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San Francisco has a group of people with petitions asking that it go on the next ballot to ban circumcison from anyone under 18 yrs old.
Besides the religious obligations of Jews and Muslims guys of 18 and older who want it would have severe pain if they had it and got an erection after it was done.
How do you guys feel about it?
 
Joeychuck,

What a load of crap!
I have known several men who have had circumcisions as adult men, and not one complained of severe pain with erections after they had it done, and not one was sorry they had it done.
And what a waste of effort! Why don't those idiot people put their efforts at something that is worhtwhile? Like what? Well, let's see. Perhaps they could peition their state to have better treatment of soldiers and their families coming back from serving our country. Why not petition their state to demand that their state provide better educational opportunities. I could go on and on.
That group of people need a reality check.
 
San Francisco has a group of people with petitions asking that it go on the next ballot to ban circumcison from anyone under 18 yrs old.
Besides the religious obligations of Jews and Muslims guys of 18 and older who want it would have severe pain if they had it and got an erection after it was done.
How do you guys feel about it?

Joeychuck2:

Could you upload the web address for the article you read, please. I find it difficult to discuss an issue like this without referencing the original document. This is a very hot topic here in Ca., and as Jlipps has indicated, there are several reasons why such a ballot item would stir up contention.

Thanks, :thumbup1:
 
Don't cut me bro!

To legislate the retention of the skin on your dick is muy rad, not like the initiatives to ban the much more invasive female circumcision in Africa (and for which there is a much more telling case to be made).

But if you were allowed to keep your foreskin till the age of 18 you would normally be very unlikely to want to part with it at any time after that.
 

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My understanding is that circumcision was adopted for health reasons. However, I think that the health reasons in question were life threatening at one time. I am not sure that those issues still present a problem today. I guess there is some merit to allowing a guy to be old enough to make an informed decision. I think that religion plays a huge role in most people's lives too. So, I think the decision should remain with the parents. (Sounds like the real issue is at what point do we draw the line with a parents rights verses the individuals rights. If you think about it, it is kind of like getting a tattoo or body piercing in reverse. Your parents say know but you go and do it anyway. Your body your decision. So, this could prove an interesting issue in the long run.) I don't think it should be an automatic thing though.

Personally, I don't miss having foreskin. I kind of agree with what Slim said. I believe if I had it until I was 18 I would probably never have it cut off. Although, I do know of two guys I went to high school with that had their foreskin cut off at age 16 for medical reasons and they said it was quite painful.
 
It may be of interest to some to know that there is at least one club (here in Cali) where men, mostly the leather or bear crowd, actually place their foreskins on the line so to speak in various games of chance. The loser must allow the winner, assisted by a trained medical person, to remove his foreskin, and keep it as a trophy. Several men have then tanned the removed flesh and wear it on a leather thong around the neck!
 
I've read about this proposition in San Francisco too.

I believe the discussion about pain has to do with the post-procedural discomfort and not any pain once the area has healed.

People of the Jewish faith have their male babies circumcised as newborn infants while Muslims, for example, wait until their boys are pre-pubescent. Obviously newborns carry no memory of any pain or drama.

But I have seen videos of circumcisions in the Middle-East and these boys are horrified at what they realize is about to happen to them. Such scenes are very hard to watch. The families throw parties where the boys are traditionally dressed as sultans or pashas. There is food and celebration. It is seen as a rite of passage into manhood.

But there's is a lot of screaming and crying and panic from these boys. I saw one video where a boy fainted knowing what was about to happen to him. And the adult males laughed at this.

I don't care how old these traditions are but they are no less immoral to me than the atrocious female circumcisions.

I know it is considered taboo to discuss limiting religious rights in the U.S. but maybe we should take a closer look at such "ceremonies" when they take place here. In my opinion, such rites here should be banned just as with any mercy killings or female circumcions. It should also be illegal to send children overseas for such purposes.

However, I do not find it contradictory to say that San Fran should stay out of the Big Brother business.
 
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It may be of interest to some to know that there is at least one club (here in Cali) where men, mostly the leather or bear crowd, actually place their foreskins on the line so to speak in various games of chance. The loser must allow the winner, assisted by a trained medical person, to remove his foreskin, and keep it as a trophy. Several men have then tanned the removed flesh and wear it on a leather thong around the neck!

I thought of so many things to say about this...........But it all boils down to EWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!:scared::scared::scared:

When I asked a man what was around his neck, and he answered FORESKINS, I think my eyes would bug right out of my head.:scared:
 
It may be of interest to some to know that there is at least one club (here in Cali) where men, mostly the leather or bear crowd, actually place their foreskins on the line so to speak in various games of chance. The loser must allow the winner, assisted by a trained medical person, to remove his foreskin, and keep it as a trophy. Several men have then tanned the removed flesh and wear it on a leather thong around the neck!

Almost as wild as testifying in real life. I guess you are out of the club once your loose your foreskin. LOL The crazy games we come up with to see who is more macho. LOL:scared:
 
Foreskin vs. no skin...

My personal point of view on "Circumcision" is that this is an optional surgical procedure with little if any merit when performed arbitrarily on all newborns. This is a tradition that has long outlived its usefulness, unless your family consists of largely nomadic tribes who wonder around the desert with a minimum of sanitation we take for granted in our world today.

MY NORMAL INCLINATION AND BASIC RULE TO FOLLOW CONCERNING ALL MEDICAL PROCEDURES IS THAT, NO SURGERY, NO MATTER HOW SMALL OR SEEMINGLY INSIGNIFICANT, SHOULD BE ENGAGED IN WITHOUT A VALID "MEDICAL REASONS". HOPEFULLY NOT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF CONTINUING SOME ANCIENT RELIGIOUS TRADITION, ABSENT MODERN RATIONAL THOUGHT.

The same statement above could equally apply for "female circumcision" as well. The fact is that there can be "botched circumcisions" by doctors who have had no specific training, as is the case with most of our US doctors. What qualifies surgeons is their ego that convinces them they are "GODS" and this mere fact is sufficient to justify this operation. Very few males in Europe have circumcision and they exist just fine co-existing with their foreskin. In the late 1800's, mistaken medical science in the US viewed not being circumcised as making males more prone to masturbating. This became a process in the US to reduce the sensitivity of the glans of the penis by exposing it to more continuous contact, thus reducing its relative sensitivity. Intact males have a more sensitive glans due to the protection offered by the foreskin.

Using a "moyle", who has far more specific training based on Jewish tradition, makes more sense out of an invasive and optional medical procedure. I trust a moyle much more than any regular medical doctor to do this procedure anyway and not due to any personal religious beliefs, as I am a Roman Catholic. I will say that with the many variations foreskins may take, I feel those left in tact are blessed to have not suffered being butchered.

Infants suffering a botched circumcision can wind up loosing their penis altogether, if the doctor is accident prone with their scaple. This is no joke and this does happen right her in the "Circumcision Capital of the World = the good old US of A". While this problem may not be as daunting to society at large as the nuclear disaster in Japan, for the young boy growing up without his penis (even when lost close to the tiime of their birth) must be an unbearable burden for them to adjust to. How freakish must they feel about their own butchered body when growing up into adulthood. My heart goes out to them for unmeasureable suffering such an unnecessary loss for the sake of some irrelavent, ancient, and barbaric "tradition"!

As you can see, I feel strongly in support of this notion of "not automatically circumcising infant boys". I am amazed that parents feel so free to deny their own child any sayso in their own body modification. I have never personally known a victim as this surely would be kept a secret, but since it does in fact exist, I do not want any part of this stupidity! Imagine if this child was your own. How could you as a parent in a matter of fact way, ever explain to their male child adequately that an essential part of their body was sliced off and thrown away much like the placenta or routine waste products. But even beyond this, the missing body part makes them appear freakish to any boy or girl they might ever come in contact with for the rest of their life, all in the pursuit of some mindless continuation of some unnecessary medical procedure, or you might say "business as usual".

I sincerely hope you will give it a second thought for the sake of other potentially innocent male victims, to support this ban on "medically unnecessary" circumcisions.

Respectfully,


Stimpy
 
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Stimpy, you make some valid points, but all-in-all I like the idea that most males in the US are circuncized. I like the fact that I am circuncized. At least for those of us who had it done as infants.

Keep in mind that no babies in the US are ever "automatically" cut.

The parents are asked and it is covered by the insurance companies, even medicaid.

As a kid I was used to seeing other boys who were circumicized Uncut boys wer the exception. And when I first became active in my gay life, I must be totally honest----I was grossed out the first time I saw a guy who was uncut. I actually stopped everything and pulled my pants back up. I know friends of mine who have said the same thing, uncut? ewwwwww."

Of course I do know better now and I don't mind uncut dudes if they are clean.

But cut boys need to be clean too don't they?

On the other hand, a guy who is uncut and hasn't been near a shower in a while (sorry to be blunt here) gets far more disgusting, faster than a cut dude. Sorry but that is a fact. I live in New York City with people from all cultures and I know what I'm talking about.

I went to a club in New Jersey that bordered a wooded area that guys sneak off to with each other. The boy I was with seemed fine in the club, but when he opened his pants. OMG there was an ungodly stench that I know no cut boy can produce.

Of course I've been with uncut boys who were perfectly fine. I even had to learn the proper way to wank one, and uncut boys have to learn the same about those of us without a foreskin.

They try to pull on a foreskin that isn't there. OUCH LOL
 
I have thought about this over the last few days. Here is my conclusion. God doesn't make mistakes. We are born perfect whole and complete just the way we are. And everything happens for a reason. So, there must be some lesson to be learned from this practice of circumcision.

I think it is interesting that many people with emotional disorders uncover layer after layer going back many years into their lives. I wonder how many of these issues can be traced back to the trauma of circumcision in a person's life.

I don't think circumcision should be an automatic thing done by the hospital. I do believe that the issue should ultimately be left up to the individual to make a conscious choice. However, I don't want to interfere with a parent's rights either. They are ultimately given the right to make all of their child’s informed decisions until the age of majority or the child is emancipated. If parents choose circumcision for their child it is their Karma. I think it is great to champion a great cause. But I think that some parents will make the choice, like my friend Amber, to say no to circumcision. Others will insist on it. I don't think there should be any laws that mandate circumcision. Also, there will always be a division between the Church and the State. Declaring that circumcision is inhumane or passing laws to mandate it are foolish and a waste of time. Those kinds of laws only serve to strengthen the power of gov't and take away rights and individual freedom. Some may argue that someone needs to defend that innocent child. I agree. But that is the parent's job until they prove to be unfit parents. I just think that parents should be presented with all of the facts and let them decide however they choose. We may not like it but it should be their decision. :wink:
 
What a shame that people are so ignorant in their rants mistakingly thinking that they are on the high moral ground and therefore correct in their ignorant assumptions.

In the first place, circumcision is not a surgical procedure, unless you have it performed as an adolescent, or an adult. To calll it an INVASIVE medical procedure, truly shows medical ignorance.

Second, how dare anyone call someone freakish, just because they are circumcised! For the millions of us who are circumcised, it is freaky for us to encounter all that cheesy, smelly foreskin on those who are uncut.

Third, the good ole US of A, I doubt is the capital of circumcision. There are millions of Americans who are uncut. Countries like Turkey (and most middle eastern countries), are probably more apt to be the capital of this tradition.

Fourth, who the hell is anyone to call the tradition barbaric, irrelevant, or ancient? Obviously, it is not ancient. Barbaric and irrelevant, only if your religion does not ask this of you. The ancient barbaric rite was begun as a religious issue and what right does any uncut have, to call the tradition irrelevant simply because it does not fit your idea of what a religious rite should be.

Fifth, Doctors do not rush into a nursery to go around cutting foreskins, simply because it is covered by insurance, even medicaid. In fact, doctors do not and can not perform a circumcision without the express permission of the parents. Unless you have worked in a hospital and seen what really goes on there, how can anyone make such an ignorant statement? There is no such practice of "arbitrarily" going around doing such procedures.

Sixth, anyone who truly knows exactly what the female circumcisions in Africa entail would not make such an ignorant and arrogant comparison.

Seventh, Botched procedures and loss of penis?? Where the hell do people come up with this crap? Not to say, that a circumcision could not be done improperly, but to say that it leads to a boy losing his penis and growing up in shame and misery. Well, I can only laugh at such ignorance.

Eighth, unmeasurable suffering? Where? How? Who on this forum has actually been in the nursery and witnessed the procedure being done? I have, and I have not witnessed this unmeasruable suffering. Neither have I ever met a circumcised man who suffered unmeasurable suffering, emotionally, because they were circumcised.

Ninth, I find it difficult to comprehend why people who are NOT circumcised, take such a passionate stance on something that was not done to them. How does it affect you? I could understand a circumcised man maybe having the right to feel butchered, or disfigured, and, I have yet to meet one.

Tenth, I am circumcised, and I am proud to be. I have never felt shame, or guilt, or any mental anguish related to being circumcised. I think "cut" is beautiful. I read how so many of you "uncut" are so enamored of some of these boys on the futon, and yet, they are often, circumcised. Sounds a bit hypocritical. I can only assume that those of you so passionate about this issue, specially if you think it so shameful and disfiguring, would turn down a circumcised cock, if it were offered to you.

In closing, in my 30 years as a hospital worker, I have seen that there has been a HUGE reduction in the number of circumcisions performed on infants. And, those that are peformed, are done so ONLY at the parent's request. There is no "foreskin fairy" going around arbitrarily cutting off foreskins to discard like placentas.

Also, I still believe there are far more important social issues facing our country, and the world, which would benefit from the utilization of idle people's minds and efforts. And, the government already intrudes in our personal lives far more than it should, and the issue of circumcision (whether pro or con), is not an area I want my government involved with. Feed the hungry, provide shelter for the homeless, provide affordable medical care and treatment, educate the ignorant (please), find and provide affordable alternatives to fossil fuels, these are far more pressing issues than a frickin ban on circumcisions.
 
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yikes! here we go...

1 - circumcision USED to be considered healthier and cleaner for a young male. today, as long as you keep it clean, you're fine. do all uncut mean keep it clean? nope. dickcheese is fucking nasty.

2 - you have no right to negatively comment on another culture's tradition (excluding female circumcision which jlipps is right, if you knew/understood it... you would call it barbaric and brutal). it's their tradition. you don't follow it. you can have an opinion, but don't criticize.

3 - an infant is circumcised at the point where the nerve endings and blood vessels have either not fully developed or developed whatsoever, leaving the child in relatively no pain. yes, penile adhesions can happen but it's not so negative that some claim it to be.

4 - some parents choose to circumcise their children just because they want to. it's their choice. to BAN any practice where it serves no real purpose either way, is simply a group of people further dictating their own beliefs and pushing it on the rest of the community.

i am circumcised (as you can all see). if i had a son, i would circumcise him. i enjoy my dick exactly the way it is. no one should take away anyone's decision based upon their own preference.
 
Thank you JLipps4u for your intelligent and eloquent discussion, which hopefully will help put to bed some of the ridiculous assertions being made by those who support this completely misguided and wrong initiative. No need to repeat the important remarks you and several others offered on the topic. However, I will add that in addition to the religious imperative and central element circumcision represents in the Jewish faith (I believe the same is true for Moslems but am not knowledgeable enough about their practice to comment), there is plenty of recent medical research published that supports earlier findings that circumsized men are less likely to contract and/or transmit STD's and HIV to justify the procedure medically. As also stated by you and others, the fine citizens of San Francisco (a city I absolutely love) have far more important issues to address (as do all of us).
 
Kristen Bjorn porn

My mate Milen was contacted by these guys to go to Madrid, or maybe it was Barcelona, for a screen test. They sent him the ticket but he chickened out at the last minute. This was three years ago and I remember that they required that models be uncut, although now it's only that they prefer them that way (see below). I can't imagine that the criteria for appearing in a Broke Straight Boys scene are anything like these. There's no mention here of intelligence, quick wit, willingness to pitch in, inexperience with other guys, acting skills: nothing that makes a good brokie. I would say it's more difficult to please the Broke Straight Boys clientele than it is to please the Kristen Bjorn one :w00t:

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zyl84,

According to the First Ammendment of the U.S.Constitution, I DO have the right to criticize or say whatever I want about an issue. Personally, I find your brand of pseudo-tolerance troubling. And if we were to follow your moral compass even female circumcisions would have to be accepted. That is if you "knew/understood" them.

JLipps4u,

I happen to agree with your stand on circumcision. I too am proud to be cut and prefer others who are as well.

However, since you seem fixated in curing the world of ignorance, why don't we start with your item number 7 above: "Botched procedures and loss of penis?? Where the hell do people come up with this crap"?

Well, try a search of the book, The Boy Who Was Raised A Girl. It's a heartbreaking true story of a baby whose penis was burned off during a botched circumcision with a cauterizer.

The parents decided to raise the boy as a girl. But it didn't work out so well. The "girl" wanted to play boys' games and dress as a boy. When he entered puberty, he thought he was becoming lesbian, until he learned the awful truth at the age of 15.

He began to live as a male and gave himself a boy's name. He later married and had children. However this story ended tragically with his suicide in 2004.

There's much more to the story if you google search it.

But since you're a hospital worker, you would indeed know that such botched episodes, although rare, can and do indeed happen.
 
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zyl84,

According to the First Ammendment of the U.S.Constitution, I DO have the right to criticize or say whatever I want about an issue. Personally, I find your brand of pseudo-tolerance troubling. And if we were to follow your moral compass even female circumcisions would have to be accepted. That is if you "knew/understood" them.

JLipps4u,

I happen to agree with your stand on circumcision. I too am proud to be cut and prefer others who are as well.

However, since you seem fixated in curing the world of ignorance, why don't we start with your item number 7 above: "Botched procedures and loss of penis?? Where the hell do people come up with this crap"?

Well, try a search of the book, The Boy Who Was Raised A Girl. It's a heartbreaking true story of a baby whose penis was burned off during a botched circumcision with a cauterizer.

The parents decided to raise the boy as a girl. But it didn't work out so well. The "girl" wanted to play boys' games and dress as a boy. When he entered puberty, he thought he was becoming lesbian, until he learned the awful truth at the age of 15.

He began to live as a male and gave himself a boy's name. He later married and had children. However this story ended tragically with his suicide in 2004.

There's much more to the story if you google search it.

But since you're a hospital worker, you would indeed know that such botched episodes, although rare, can and do indeed happen.

someone should take your right away... just sayin'! hugs, kisses and puppies. your first amendment right entitles you to your opinion and speak about it but your criticism is what's troubling. people like you are the reason violence is so bad in this world. :)
 
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Interesting zyl,

Your political correctness makes you non-judgemental when it comes to brutal rites and traditions abroad but you're suddenly judgemental with my First Ammendment rights.

Fortunately you're not running things or quaint traditions such as honor killings and female circumcisions might be the least we have to worry about in our country.
 
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