UK General Election 2010

[joninliverton]

Hi Guys,

Well it's the UK General Election next year and I was wondering how much coverage it gets in the USA. During last years USA elections there was massive coverage over here; this is probably because whatever your govt does has so much effect on the rest of the world.

Currently the main parties are having their annual conferences, but this year these conferences are like a mini manifesto, where they're tempting the voters with their false promises. Personally, if a govt does not fulfill their promises by a certain agreed time period, the I think there should be a vote of no confidence and a new GE called.

Although I love my country, I currently feel so ashamed on what it has become. Last Monday the BBC broadcast a film about the Nazis' bombing of Coventry in Nov 1941. There was excellent footage of the city pre and post bombing but what amazed me and those who I've spoken to, is how quick the people of the city got the munitions and other engineering factories up and running after the blizt. And also how few people took the offer of being shipped out to other parts of the country.

The courage and pride of these people is unquestionable and I fear a similar situation today would bring far more dissapointing results.

So how many of you guys are interested in British politics and do people over the pond really care on how we vote or who we elect ? Be honest, I will not be offended. xx

 

[mikeyank]

Interesting Subject

Interesting Subject

Based on my own somewhat limited exposure to television news and print journalism on a regular basic, I would think that the general population here has more knowledge and interest in the Royal Family than the British Parliament. Far more of us know about the Queen, and Prince Charles and his sons than the Prime Minister or who is running for election.

You said that our election last year had massive coverage. I am curious to know what you would say about the way Great Britain perceives the USA today. Are we admired, or pitied or laughed at? I'd like to know from a citizen in the UK. Thanks.

 

[tampa24]

Well I am a bit of a WWII history buff myself. I am always awestruck at the bravery of the British during the Blitz. And during all of the war as well in the European, African and Pacific theaters. After the fall of France, Britain stood alone against Hitler. As Churchill desperately tried to convince FDR to give the UK more weapons and food assistance (which they could no longer afford to pay for) he famously told his envoy on the way to the U.S. to brief FDR : "Adolph Hitler may very well one day rule the world. Right now all he needs is for one tiny island to capitulate. Tell him that!" That of course led to the Lend Lease Act whereby the U.S. "loaned" Britain hundreds of cargo ships and free weapons and food aid.

As to your question of whether your countrymen today would tolerate the shared sacrifice that went into winning the war...I have the same doubts over here with present day Americans. If we imposed just 2 basic rationing strategies over here I don't know how Americans would do it. If you imposed gas rationing with coupon books and no cash was allowed at the pumps there would be incredible whining and unrest. If you rationed food in the grocery stores with coupon books and no cash was allowed I dare say that Americans today wouldn't tolerate it.

I will put off my comments on British PM's for another post because I wanted to mention something that I had considered bringing up in the forum before. One of the biggest Allied secrets of the entire war was so top secret and classified that it was not revealed until 50 years later. That being that Britain had broken the primary Nazi war codes used during the entire war. The German code machines used for transmitting orders directly to troops in the field looked like typewriters. The were called Enigma machines. They were deliberately made to be very complex and to send out unbreakable coded messages. The typist would key in all of the information and it would print out on Enigma machines at locations of the sender's choosing. The rotor settings in each machine had to be had to be reset to a new specified setting every day or the receiver would get nothing but random letters that were total gibberish.

It was up to a very skilled team of British mathematicians to figure out the precise settings of the rotors to glean the secret Axis communications. And then to translate those messages from German to English. The breaking of Axis codes was an invaluable tool that may not have single handedly won the war, but certainly speeded its end. You Brits probably know where I'm going with this story but I ask the rest of you to bear with me because there is a point. Because of these talented codebreakers Churchill knew that Coventry was going to be bombed. But that knowledge alone did not mean that he could stop it. Britain was still at Hitler's mercy in 1940-1941. Churchill wanted desperately to order an evacuation of Coventry but he knew that if he did the Nazis would know that he had been tipped off. He had to let them believe for the entire war that their code was unbroken. If they changed their machines and codes then that major advantage would be lost. I'm sure that watching the population of Coventry being terrorized and killed had to have seared his soul.

Figuring out the precise settings of all these multiple rotors that changed daily required hundreds of complex mathematical calculations in order to decode these messages. One of the top scientists/mathematicians on the codebreaking team was named Alan Turing. It's no exaggeration that along with the RAF that he helped save Britain and possibly the Western World as we know it today. Churchill credited him with the single biggest contribution to the Allied victory.

Alan Turing had one major problem facing him after the war was won. He was gay. And that was illegal. So what did a grateful nation do for him? His work and contributions to the war effort were still top secret all his life. In 1952 he was tried and convicted of the crime of Gross Indecency for having a homosexual affair with another man. He was given a choice in his sentence. He had to either agree to chemical castration or prison. He chose castration. Two years later at he age of 41 he committed suicide by eating a poisoned apple. Alan Turing was a great man.

Homosexuality was not decriminalized in England until 1967.

On September 10, 2009 British PM Gordan Brown speaking on behalf of the government issued a posthumous public apology for the way Turing was treated for being gay.

 

[joninliverton]

Excellent reply Tampa and yes I knew about Churchill's decision not to warn the people of Coventry, otherwise it would have compromised the source - that being Enigma and the code breaking geniuses at Bletchley Park.

Alan Turing has a memorial statue in Manchester, one of the UKs most gay friendly cities and yes, I signed the online petition to get the PM to put out an apology.

Replying to Mike - yes it's a strange feeling I get when I listen to Americans on about the UK. They are far more interested in our history and the Royal Family then they are about our PM and our political stance. Of course we are all aware of the "special relationship" that the UK/USA has had since Reagan/Thatcher but not all UK citizens think it is a good idea. Some think that we are just bum sucking up to you guys and just following like sheep - mainly because of the Iraq and Afghanistan issues.

Anyway I love you guys, I've been over there about 5 times - always to the West coast of course and intend to come over there again next year. The East coast is far to sticky/humid for me - I like the dry heat of the Nevada desert.

Lets keep this thread going.

 

[tampa24]

I knew about Churchill's decision not to warn the people of Coventry, otherwise it would have compromised the source - that being Enigma and the code breaking geniuses at Bletchley Park.

Alan Turing has a memorial statue in Manchester, one of the UKs most gay friendly cities and yes, I signed the online petition to get the PM to put out an apology.
.

Hey Jon,

I'm so pleased to hear that you were one of the tens of thousands of people who signed the petition to get an official apology for Turing.

As to your other point about British PM's and politics I must confess that I don't keep up with it as much as in the past. We Americans seem to get a skewed view of your PM's. For instance we are stunned that a giant like Churchill could be booted out of office shortly after winning the war. I guess that it was extremely difficult for him personally and politically to accept the reality that Britain came out of the war absolutely broke financially and no longer a superpower. His priorities were more along the lines of maintaining the empire at huge military, financial and even moral expense. Keeping India British, keeping Rhodesia British, etc...

I know you'll probably groan at me. But my favorite modern day PM was Margaret Thatcher. Even though I'm liberal in my politics. I never cared for Ronald Reagan as much as others over here. I did vote for him in his first election though to get Jimmy Carter out of office. She was such a strong leader and we loved the fact that Gorbachev called her the Iron Lady.

I loved the way that she handled selling off the units in public housing complexes to the renters for a percentage of their individual incomes. Turning them from subsidized renters who never had a settled life, into owners of their own homes for the first time in their lives was a brilliant move. They started to take pride in their homes. Graffiti went way down. The planting of flowerbeds and trees went way up. And these new homeowners could look to the future with a new sense of security that they had never known. They were lifted a peg up from the bottom of the British caste system.

Also Thatcher's leadership in the Falkland Islands War was exemplary.

It was a surprise to many of us Americans to find out how unpopular she actually was in Britain. Or at the very least she was not held in as high a regard at home as here. Many of us over here were shocked when her own party dumped here from the PM post.

 

[joninliverton]

Yes the dumping of Thatcher is an enigma in itself, mind you so was the dumping of Tony Blair. The problem over here is that people and especially the media get bored with PMs after a while, no matter how well they are running the country. All it takes is one small story for the press to pick up on and the next headline you hear is "backbenchers or cabinet in revolt" and similar other stories. Tony Blair was re elected 4 times and in the end people got fed up, but he timed his departure very well - just before the recession hit everyone.

Refering to your paragraph about the Thatcher govt giving people renting council houses the opportunity to buy their own home. My parents were one of those thousands who took up the offer. They lived at the end of a row of terraced houses and because of their position they were entitled to the land that surrounded their home. This was quite large which enabled them to build a large garage onto the gable end of the house and invest in a beautiful garden. The council even fenced off their land free of charge. Their home cost them circa 11k and is now worth around 80k.

Going back to the subject of next years election, as much as I love the US elections there will be far less razamataz over here. I believe this time there are going to be more live TV head to head debates between the leaders - I shall wait in hope for that.

Like anything else though, each time an election comes around all the parties put their manifestos/promises on the table trying to entice the electorate into voting for them. Very rarely does the winner manage to fulfill their promises and I feel they should be taken to task if they do not. One such argument is the right for the British people to vote for the recent EU constitution reform which our neighbours in Ireland have just been forced into a revote. This govt keeps putting it off because they fear the NO community will win.

 

[Reubenjames]

Hi Guys.
1, I also signed the online petition.
2, i don't want to fall out with anyone on here,as i love the site and the forum, but, Margaret Thatcher sold this country to the highest bidder. and stood by and watched as we went down the pan.
As you know i work for the NHS, i used to drive to work park the car and do a days work and then drive home.
Now i have to leave home an hour early and catch the bus, why because i will not £300 a year for a parking permit that dose not guarantee me a space,and if i go to the hospital to a meeting i would have to park in the pay and display car park and PAY, in your dreams. So now i leave my damp housing assiation flat at 0625 do a days work and get home at 2050.
I have also had a letter from the housing assiation that i rent my flat from asking if i would like to buy it, they must think i came down with the last shower of rain, i would not have this flat as a gift.But live here as i will not work till i am 85 to pay off a morgage.
I will leave my experiance of the Falklands for another post if anyone is still talking to me.
Like i said at the start of this i do not want to fall out with anyone on here this is just my experiance.
Reub.

 

[joninliverton]

Hi Guys.
1, I also signed the online petition.
2, i don't want to fall out with anyone on here,as i love the site and the forum, but, Margaret Thatcher sold this country to the highest bidder. and stood by and watched as we went down the pan.
As you know i work for the NHS, i used to drive to work park the car and do a days work and then drive home.
Now i have to leave home an hour early and catch the bus, why because i will not £300 a year for a parking permit that dose not guarantee me a space,and if i go to the hospital to a meeting i would have to park in the pay and display car park and PAY, in your dreams. So now i leave my damp housing assiation flat at 0625 do a days work and get home at 2050.
I have also had a letter from the housing assiation that i rent my flat from asking if i would like to buy it, they must think i came down with the last shower of rain, i would not have this flat as a gift.But live here as i will not work till i am 85 to pay off a morgage.
I will leave my experiance of the Falklands for another post if anyone is still talking to me.
Like i said at the start of this i do not want to fall out with anyone on here this is just my experiance.
Reub.

Hi Reuben, I realise the issue you have with the NHS parking but so does everyone else. My father had a major cancer operation 5 years ago and each time we visited him we paid parking fees through the eyeballs. But the Tory's have not been in power for 4 terms now so I cannot see what they or Thatcher has do with the NHS predicament and especially the parking issue.
No need to fall out with anyone mate, we're all entitled to our own opinion and come next May or whenever the election is, you will be alone in your booth wherever you live and I will be posting my postal vote off - totally private and independant.

I was chatting on another site today about the election and someone mention maybe it was about time we had a coalition govt. They might not be far from the truth - take a leaf out of Germany who've had a coalition govt for years and done pretty well out of it.

 

[tampa24]

Hi Guys.
1, I also signed the online petition.
2, i don't want to fall out with anyone on here,as i love the site and the forum, but, Margaret Thatcher sold this country to the highest bidder. and stood by and watched as we went down the pan.
As you know i work for the NHS, i used to drive to work park the car and do a days work and then drive home.
Now i have to leave home an hour early and catch the bus, why because i will not £300 a year for a parking permit that dose not guarantee me a space,and if i go to the hospital to a meeting i would have to park in the pay and display car park and PAY, in your dreams. So now i leave my damp housing assiation flat at 0625 do a days work and get home at 2050.
I have also had a letter from the housing assiation that i rent my flat from asking if i would like to buy it, they must think i came down with the last shower of rain, i would not have this flat as a gift.But live here as i will not work till i am 85 to pay off a morgage.
I will leave my experiance of the Falklands for another post if anyone is still talking to me.
Like i said at the start of this i do not want to fall out with anyone on here this is just my experiance.
Reub.

Dear Reuben,

Of course you are entitled to your opinion on anything mate. All of us, because of our own unique life experience, can look at the same people and events and draw totally different conclusions. There's nothing wrong with that.

Jon's stated reason for starting the thread was to find out how much if anything we Yanks knew about the British political system. And to find out what we thought of British PM's. Of course other Brits are allowed to have opinions and state them here also.

As for Margaret Thatcher I know she not a saint. She made a lot of enemies with various policies that she pursued. I'm aware that toward the end of her leadership of the country that she was accused of being very arrogant. And many said that she had started to act like a U.S. president. That grated on many who dealt with her. Of course in a parliamentary system the PM serves at the pleasure of the party. Not at the direct pleasure of the electorate as presidents in the U.S. do. The Tories decided that she had become such a liability that they would lose the next election unless they replaced her. That being the case it was a very logical decision. My only point was that it was a shock to us in the States because we held her in such high regard over here.

Far from being ready to have a falling out with you Reuben I look forward to your takes on anything you choose to talk about.

I suspect that you were in uniform during the war in the Falklands. I look forward to hearing your take on that also. I strongly supported Britain in that war because the military junta running Argentina was nothing but a corrupt bunch of thugs and murderers. Between right wing military dictators like Pinochet in Chile and Galtieri in Argentina... and their band of merry men, they gave us a new verb in the English language: "To be disappeared."

Oh! And on a lighter note ...Kudos Reuben for signing the petition for Turing.

 

[Reubenjames]

Hi Jon.
I wonder if a coalition would work in this country, i know it did in ww2 but that was because it had too.In this day and age there are to many splinter parties that would want there say as well.

Tampa i am a ww1 history buff, and also a royal family history buff.
Reub.

 

[joninliverton]

Hi Reuben, I would love to see theh UKIP go into a coalition with say the Liberals. BNP are fast getting more support due to our weak govt letting all and sundrie through our borders, but they (BBP) are not for me.

 

[Reubenjames]

Hi Reuben, I would love to see theh UKIP go into a coalition with say the Liberals. BNP are fast getting more support due to our weak govt letting all and sundrie through our borders, but they (BBP) are not for me.

Hi Jon.
While i am very aware that the big 3 ( Conserative, Labour and the Liberals ) have not done very well with this country, i would be very worried about what you suggest.
I have done no research on either the UKIP or the BNP, but i doubt that either would be very tolerant of gays.
And i am a little cocerned about how they would treat other minority groups as well.
Reub.

 

[joninliverton]

Hi Rubes, I don't think the UKIP are anti gay but I think the BNP are, but anyone who ignores the importance of the pink quarter is a fool. There are more "out" gays and lesbians now than ever and if the BNP were brave enough to announce a manifesto then it would be scanned very dilegently by the gay rights organisations. Quite rightly too.

 

[tampa24]

So what do you guys think of Gordon Brown? He seems rather staid, boring and bureaucratic from over here.

I never cared for John Major. He seemed arrogant but yet not quite up to the task. He never could fill Thatcher's shoes. Which I guess is the pot calling the kettle black after a majority here inflicted George Bush on the world. Talk about someone in over their head... That sounds like Bush to a T.

I liked Tony Blair alot. And he really helped rally the West in putting the pressure on the butcher of Belgrade. He was a great help in stopping the genocide in the former Yugoslavia. Like you over there though I soured on him later when he kept acting like he was Bush's lap dog and was always licking Bush's boots. As if Bush was a visionary and brilliant leader worth following.

 

[joninliverton]

Gordon Brown is a typical bean counter. He did a very good job as chancellor but as PM he has carried his stingyness onwards to the new office. Saying that he had quite a few awkward things to deal with when he came into office, non more awkward that the world financial crisis. Gordon actually set a precedent by bailing out some of the banks over here and stating that the govt would support them, albeit that the banks have to pay the govt back with interest of course. He's also had Afghanistan to deal with and the increasing amount of British fatalities out there is worrying the voters. This could be his downfall and it looks as if Blair got out just at the right time, now Brown has to take the flack on something he has little control of.

 

[joninliverton]

Last night there was a debate on BBC TV's excellent current affairs programme "Question Time" which included the leader of the far right nationalist party the BNP's leader Nick Griffin. I didn't see it but it's the first time such a party has had any airtime. There were large anti facist demonstrations outside the BBC's TV offices but the BBC said that they had to act impartially and give him the chance to air his views. In the recent European elections his party got quite a few votes so that was another reason why the bbc decided to invite him.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8321683.stm

 

[joninliverton]

So the date of the UK General Election has been announced - May 6th 2010. Now the fighting, bitching, name calling etc begins. This year, the 3 main party leaders are having a US type "leaders debate" live on TV, with the first one being this coming Thursday - God help the viewers.

I am still undecided on which way I shall vote as I'm not keen on Gordon Brown (monotone, boring), and although David Cameron appears to be Mr Nice Guy, I have a feeling his "Mr Family Man" attitude may have a sting in the tail for the gay and lesbian community. The 3rd party - Liberals - don't stand much chance unless a massive majority get really pissed with the other 2, but unfortunately a lot of people in the UK still vote "because they've always voted for x and their family has always voted for x".

 

[vicekid]

Excellent reply Tampa and yes I knew about Churchill's decision not to warn the people of Coventry, otherwise it would have compromised the source - that being Enigma and the code breaking geniuses at Bletchley Park.

Alan Turing has a memorial statue in Manchester, one of the UKs most gay friendly cities and yes, I signed the online petition to get the PM to put out an apology.

Replying to Mike - yes it's a strange feeling I get when I listen to Americans on about the UK. They are far more interested in our history and the Royal Family then they are about our PM and our political stance. Of course we are all aware of the "special relationship" that the UK/USA has had since Reagan/Thatcher but not all UK citizens think it is a good idea. Some think that we are just bum sucking up to you guys and just following like sheep - mainly because of the Iraq and Afghanistan issues.

Anyway I love you guys, I've been over there about 5 times - always to the West coast of course and intend to come over there again next year. The East coast is far to sticky/humid for me - I like the dry heat of the Nevada desert.

Lets keep this thread going.

Jon, You can get some of that dry heat in Calif. So if you come out next year Marky is up in northern Calif. (perhaps not as dry) and I'm down in the south. In 2009 I was in your neck of the woods twice. On one of our channels here they show the Prime Minister questions in Parliament and on a few occasions I watch them (some with John major and some with Tony Blair). I found it very interesting. I doubt any of our Presidents could handle anything like this.

Live Long and Prosper,

Vicekid

 

[johnuk1986]

You said that our election last year had massive coverage. I am curious to know what you would say about the way Great Britain perceives the USA today. Are we admired, or pitied or laughed at? I'd like to know from a citizen in the UK. Thanks.

Ok now this is a subject I can talk about just about as much as porn.... Mikeyank from a young British persons point of view i view America as somewhat of an odd entity. They claim to be forward thinking, liberal etc etc and i thought they made huge strives by electing Obama.... but what do they do on the same night, said yes to prop 8! fuck that! And not only that but they are one of the only countries in the western world to not allow homosexuals to enlist, or have them thrown out due to the antiquated "Don't ask, Don't Tell" policy.... Makes me think y'all are a bunch a hillbilly homophobs!
And as for health care reform... i know the NHS isnt exactly perfect, but i know my sick penniless grand parents will not be left to die with no dignity because they couldnt afford health insurance or they had a "pre existing" condition.
America were ridiculed when they re-elected GWB.. praised for electing obama and now all they want to do is get him outta there because he actually wants to make changes to a country that is no longer seen as the Power of the world.


As for British politics...
I like Gordon Brown.. I think he come across as a bit dull or whatever. But to be honest i think that he is decisive, he knows what the right plan of action is and cannot be bnothered with all the beaurocracy that is involved with having to make decisions in this country. he may come across as a bully, but i think that it is only because he is frustrated with some of the absolute dumb fucks he has to work with. he is a very clever man, and a man i feel knows what is right for this country. But only if people will allow him to do it.

I HATE david Cameron but i strongly agree with some of his policies and stongly disagree with some also.

As for the BNP - fuck off. these people are what is wrong wiht our society. Yes we have immigrants coming to our country.. yes alot of eastern europeans are coming to our contry and yes are getting jobs, But this is the whole point in the EU... How many people know someone who emigrated to spain or portugal recently? exactly! they go and retire there and pay no tax... these people work their fingers to the bone doing the jobs us Brits think we are too good for and they pay tax (majority). someone said to me once " these fucking polish taking british jobs" and i had a think about it... if that polish man over there picking the shit up from the road got the job over u and was seen at more capable of doing so, then take a long hard look at yourself!

I do not think i will vote this year, and i think thats sad. But i do not trust any of them or agree soley with any of their policies, for me to make a whole hearted decision on one or the other.

I think the British General Election will get very very little coverage in the US, because quite franky, why would they care?? the American election was historical, ours I am afraid aint!

 

[joninliverton]

Good post John but I fear if you don't vote then you really lose the opportunity to have some say on how the country will be run and by whom for the next 4 or 5 years.

I go along with the addage - if you don't vote then you cannot complain..

PS I note you come from Scotland but I note you do not mention Alex Salmond LOL