Our Country is dying FAST!

[rrhill]

Dear Ambi,

Edward Snowden earned a 6 figure salary for spying on me and you. How ironic that the Obama gouvernment now accuses Snowden of spying... In fact President Obama is responsible for prosecuting more whistle blowers than all gouvernements before him together.

Since when became informing the media, the same as espionage for the enemy? Is it a crime to report on crimes committed by the administration? This is about whistle blowing not espionage!

What we need to focus on is the core of this story: Mr. Snowden's information on mass surveillance. Mass surveillance is illegal, all happening behind closed doors without any democratic debate or oversight. We are told all the time that if we've got nothing to hide, we've got nothing to fear. But that is now blown out of the water with Snowden's revelations.

The fact is that the more data is collected about us, the more we have to fear!

We need to step up as citizens, put pressure on our governmenta. We do not need to upgrade surveillance capabilities, but instead our rights as global citizens.

XXX
Robert

 

[Ambivalent]

RRHill ~

No kidding, Putin is sticking a finger in the eye of the U.S.A. He's a former KGB man, an autocrat, and a villain who now has the state security apparatus so firmly under his control, he can do just as he pleases. As you may have heard, under Putin's rule, Russia is quickly becoming one of the world's most dangerous countries, for gay people to live in - and this matters to me, because I know and care about some of them. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/russia-law-banning-gay-propaganda

The economy in Russia has been declining for a number of years, due to the world recession, and falling demand for natural resources. The Russian people are much less well-off; the middle classes are upset with the corruption of government, and the lack of opportunity for their children; and Putin's re-election, though likely genuine, was surely not won by as wide a margin as the public was given to believe. The entire campaign, as I'm sure you know, was rigged, even if the ballots were not - and who can be sure, about that??? http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...try_s_elections_to_guarantee_he_will_win.html

And, as you know, RR - Putin faced HUGE protests upon his re-election, and his popularity is slumping, as global demand for Russia's resources has fallen. http://www.cnbc.com/id/100651504

What Putin needs right now, is a conflict with an external enemy, to galvanize his base. Putin has, for the last several weeks, been playing an intriguing double game: supporting the United States' surveillance policies (albeit in a lukewarm way) in talks with international media, while condemning them as un- and anti-democratic, in Russia itself: http://rbth.ru/politics/2013/06/13/putin_slams_unacceptable_us_security_surveillance_27045.html

The point of the game is clear, however - by playing it, Putin gets to build himself up to the Russian people as "not such a bad guy, after all!" The Russian public is conditioned (for decades) to have an inherent suspicion of American governments, and this so-called "scandal" allows Putin to portray himself as a real proponent of democracy and legal government: or, if not quite THAT, at least no WORSE than his American counterpart. (Of course, nothing could be further from the truth.)

So, when the cute, articulate, narcissistic (and frankly treasonous) Edward Snowden flies into Putin's arms - it is a very merry Christmas, at the Kremlin! Putin gets to stall the world at large, while he tells his DOMESTIC audience: "You see? WE are FREER than THEY ARE!" (He has already told his public that the Russian government adheres to due process of law, perfectly, while the U.S. does not.) Snowden's de facto defection strengthens Putin's hand IMMENSELY - and whether dear Volodya, in the end, keeps little Eddie as a trophy, or gives him up in a gesture of international conciliation - he wins, either way.

It would all be quite amusing, if it weren't so sad: and, in a tragicomic sort of way, it's the Cold War, redux ~ not because Obama, or the Senate, or the Congress, want it. . . but because that's where PUTIN'S head is at, as someone who grew up in the KGB; and because he needs to point his finger across the sea, to divert attention from Russia's staggering economy.

Yours,
"A" ;-)

P.S. Don't get me wrong - I love the Russian people dearly: just not the system under which they are presently laboring. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPKhWXhiMSw

P.P.S. It might shock you to hear this, RR, but, in previous generations, Mr. Snowden would have been (if apprehended for such crimes, in any reasonable Anglo-Saxon jurisdiction) hanged. And though I think that capital punishment is no longer justified (because the judicial system, like all other bureaucratic systems, is prone to error): I think such a punishment in this case, would be entirely justified - given that the crimes are freely admitted. At any rate, I believe this lovely little narcissist ought to be locked up for a good long time. . . . ;-)

Perhaps, forever. For, to my crude and cruel Celtic mind, to risk the lives of one's countrymen, upon the altar of one's own vanity, is a cardinal vice ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoR4jeB6OI0

 

[joninliverton]

One has to laugh at Russian president Putin as he criticises the US and as Ambi said, that's fine coming from the former head of the Soviet Unions KGB, who sent innocent people to die in the Siberian Gulags. Additionally this is the same Putin who is arming Syria with state of the art weapons in order to quash the uprising.

As for whistleblowers, well surely they should be still be subject to that countries official secret act, so if they come out with some of the comments in the links by Robert, then they too are guilty. I understand that people who have signed the uk official secrets act and their work involves access to highly secret information, are actually still subject to the act up to 10 years after they leave office.

Going back to the original topic of this thread, to which of course I have assisted in digressing. The USA is a great country which is highly respected throughout the modern world and especially in Europe. It is bad enough to have enemies in the desert, without having enemies within, which in my opinion, are what whistleblowers are.

 

[tampa24]

I'm rather surprised at how many in here think Snowden is a traitor. I admit though that being in Russia doesn't look good at all if his claims are that he has no interest or intent to sell or share his secrets with foreign governments. I'm assuming that he is still hoping to get to Iceland, where the laws are much more favorable to those seeking to avoid deportation.

 

[rrhill]

The shoe is on the other foot

Obama says he had 'blunt' talks with China's Xi on hacking

June 18, 2013
Hardening his position against China especially with regard to cyber-hacking, US President Barack Obama today said Beijing has understood his "blunt" message that his administration would not tolerate this kind of behavior.

"We had a very blunt conversation about cyber security," Obama, told the popular "Charlie Rose" show in an interview, referring to his recent meeting with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping in California early this month.

"Every country in the world, large and small, engages in intelligence gathering. And that is an occasional source of tension, but it's generally practiced within bounds.
read more: http://www.business-standard.com/ar...ith-china-s-xi-on-hacking-113061800395_1.html

U.S. Hacked China Universities, Mobile Phones, Snowden Tells China Press
June 22, 2013
The United States government hacked into Chinese mobile phone companies to collect text messages and spied on the Tsinghua University, troubled National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden told South China Morning Post in a series of articles posted on line this Saturday.

Tsinghua in Beijing is one of China’s biggest research institutions. Snowden said it was the victim of numerous hacks, including a recent one in January 2013. He did not say what the spy agencies were looking for.
Snowden said the information he shared on the Tsinghua University attacks was evidence of NSA hacking because the specific details of external and internal internet protocol addresses could only have been obtained by a foreign security breach, or with physical access to the computers. He said U.S. spy agencies have been watching China and Hong Kong for years.
In Beijing, Tsinghua University is home to one of China’s six major backbone networks, the China Education and Research Network (CERNET) from where internet data from millions of Chinese citizens could be mined. The network was the country’s first internet backbone network and has evolved into the world’s largest national research hub.
read more: http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapo...ties-mobile-phones-snowden-tells-china-press/

 

[tampa24]

U.S. Hacked China Universities, Mobile Phones, Snowden Tells China Press
June 22, 2013
The United States government hacked into Chinese mobile phone companies to collect text messages and spied on the Tsinghua University, troubled National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden told South China Morning Post in a series of articles posted on line this Saturday.

Tsinghua in Beijing is one of China’s biggest research institutions. Snowden said it was the victim of numerous hacks, including a recent one in January 2013. He did not say what the spy agencies were looking for.
Snowden said the information he shared on the Tsinghua University attacks was evidence of NSA hacking because the specific details of external and internal internet protocol addresses could only have been obtained by a foreign security breach, or with physical access to the computers. He said U.S. spy agencies have been watching China and Hong Kong for years.
In Beijing, Tsinghua University is home to one of China’s six major backbone networks, the China Education and Research Network (CERNET) from where internet data from millions of Chinese citizens could be mined. The network was the country’s first internet backbone network and has evolved into the world’s largest national research hub.
read more: http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapo...ties-mobile-phones-snowden-tells-china-press/

Well then...

He's looking less and less innocent and idealistic. :/

 

[joninliverton]

The Chinese have been hacking the western world's computers for years. We give them the technology and they turn it against us.

 

[rrhill]

Snowden's revelations (so far)

- Prism programme: Global Internet surveillance

- Secret court order to gather phone call data from provider Verizon

- Extensive hacker attacks on Chinese targets

- UK tapping phone and Internet traffic collecting data and sharing with NSA

- UK spying on diplomats of G20

Why would Edward Snowden, a young man who served in Iraq, worked for the NSA and CIA, give up his rich and easy life in the US?

PS: Jon, you'd be more upset about the NSA accessing your phone records, if you used your phone for anything else but texting and taking and pictures of your dick.

 

[Ambivalent]

Dear Ambi,

Edward Snowden earned a 6 figure salary for spying on me and you. How ironic that the Obama gouvernment now accuses Snowden of spying... In fact President Obama is responsible for prosecuting more whistle blowers than all gouvernements before him together.

Since when became informing the media, the same as espionage for the enemy? Is it a crime to report on crimes committed by the administration? This is about whistle blowing not espionage!

What we need to focus on is the core of this story: Mr. Snowden's information on mass surveillance. Mass surveillance is illegal, all happening behind closed doors without any democratic debate or oversight. We are told all the time that if we've got nothing to hide, we've got nothing to fear. But that is now blown out of the water with Snowden's revelations.

The fact is that the more data is collected about us, the more we have to fear!

We need to step up as citizens, put pressure on our governmenta. We do not need to upgrade surveillance capabilities, but instead our rights as global citizens.

XXX
Robert

**************************************************

Hi again, dear RR ~

You are a lovely man, and I find many of your points well-argued, and they are well-taken. However, I suspect, at some part of the core of this matter, we shall likely have to agree, to disagree.

Where I DO agree with you (and Tampa) quite heartily - is that when surveillance efforts are being undertaken by a government, that government's elected representatives ought to be well-informed of them, and duly assent to them. AND, if the limits of the surveillance programme are not being adhered to, as stipulated in law: any excesses ought to be curtailed.

Here is where I respectfully disagree, however:
*Edward Snowden earned a six-figure salary, not to spy on you and me: but to work in a modest technical capacity, in an anti-terrorist computer programme. His claims about his own work, and the programme itself, are increasingly in dispute, by the way. http://theweek.com/article/index/245492/5-ways-nsa-leaker-edward-snowdens-story-isnt-holding-up
*In his employment, Snowden was sworn to confidentiality - an oath which he chose to violate.
*If Snowden had serious concerns about a sensitive intelligence programme, his most responsible action would have been to alert and provide details to his supervisors, before contacting the media. It is possible that he did so, but I have seen no information suggesting that he did.
*In many instances involving national security, informing to the media is precisely the same thing as offering the fruits of espionage to an enemy. And perhaps can be even more damaging, to national security: as the information will be broadcast far and wide, to third, fourth, and fifth parties, who may be even MORE dangerous, than a recognized enemy. (The recent Boston bombings were not carried out by a STATE - they were carried out by rogue individuals.)
*If the Obama Administration has prosecuted more whistle-blowers than any previous American Administration - I respectfully ask: so what??? The very definition of "whistle-blower" (as opposed to illegitimate or disgruntled "leaker" of confidential information) is inherently fraught. The fact is, we are living in a much more dangerous time, in terms of "lone-wolf" or rogue terrorism (thanks to the Internet): and, I would submit, greater stringencies apply, in this circumstance.
*I am not aware of any surveillance activity on the part of the Obama administration, which constitutes a "crime". Undoubtedly, there may well be numbers of them which violated the basic regulations governing the programme - which is why I do agree with you, and Tampa, that debate and legislative agreement on the scope and limits of the programme, are important.
*Thus far, Snowden's revelations have blown nothing out of the water, except his own integrity. There is no evidence on the table, as of this moment (so far as I am aware) that any innocent person has been harmed, by any NSA programme. If there have been excesses in the programme, as there well may have been, then they ought to be corrected. But I am not aware of any actual harm, that Snowden has adduced.
*If, as the NSA and the FBI maintain, 50 terrorist incidents have been prevented by this data-collection system (which, by and large, appears to consist chiefly of holding in reserve telephone numbers and e-mails, and the time and lengths of the exchanges) I believe that is a small price to pay, to save (potentially) many lives.

RR, once again, I do agree with you and Tampa, that the scope and context and limits of the programme need to be clearly defined. However, I do not have a problem with the programme, per se, or in se.

"A" XOXOXOXOXOXO

 

[tampa24]

And that is the reason, Tampa, that I am glad my ancestors chose NOT to abandon His Britannic Majesty, George III. And why it's really too bad, that y'all didn't just pay your taxes in 1776, and stick with US ;-)))


P.S. Tampa - I really DO believe the British parliamentary system is the preferable system of government. And when people go carping on, about the evils of the British Empire ~ which gave us all, in both the United States and Canada, language, law, literature, and culture: I am oft reminded of that old Monty Python sketch, "What did the ROMANS ever do, for US?" ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

On the other hand, lest I become altogether too chauvinistic - the British class system isn't awfully nice. And the Brits were absolutely rotten, to the Irish ~ a terrible tragedy which is only recently beginning to be healed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb3Em1JtrI0

Thanks for the enlightening history lesson Ambi. You do make some valid points. But you can't change the past. I/we can only do our best to do better now and into the future.

 

[tampa24]

The point of the game is clear, however - by playing it, Putin gets to build himself up to the Russian people as "not such a bad guy, after all!" The Russian public is conditioned (for decades) to have an inherent suspicion of American governments, and this so-called "scandal" allows Putin to portray himself as a real proponent of democracy and legal government: or, if not quite THAT, at least no WORSE than his American counterpart. (Of course, nothing could be further from the truth.)

So, when the cute, articulate, narcissistic (and frankly treasonous) Edward Snowden flies into Putin's arms - it is a very merry Christmas, at the Kremlin! Putin gets to stall the world at large, while he tells his DOMESTIC audience: "You see? WE are FREER than THEY ARE!" (He has already told his public that the Russian government adheres to due process of law, perfectly, while the U.S. does not.) Snowden's de facto defection strengthens Putin's hand IMMENSELY - and whether dear Volodya, in the end, keeps little Eddie as a trophy, or gives him up in a gesture of international conciliation - he wins, either way.

It would all be quite amusing, if it weren't so sad: and, in a tragicomic sort of way, it's the Cold War, redux ~ not because Obama, or the Senate, or the Congress, want it. . . but because that's where PUTIN'S head is at, as someone who grew up in the KGB; and because he needs to point his finger across the sea, to divert attention from Russia's staggering economy.

It IS very sad that Putin cynically gets to use this for propaganda purposes to promote himself and his government as being the true defenders of freedom in the world. He is still a product of the Soviet KGB era. So it's not too surprising that in modern Russia, the apple doesn't far from the tree.

 

[Ambivalent]

The Chinese have been hacking the western world's computers for years. We give them the technology and they turn it against us.

**********************************************

Jon,

Chinese hacking of U.S., Canadian, and European cyber-systems is massive: and one of the greatest threats facing the Western world today. China has hacked into computer systems to steal :
*major military technology blueprints: http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2013/05/28/australia-china-hacking.html
*information about the financial positions, command and control, of major Canadian and American energy and utility companies:
http://business.financialpost.com/2...hina-led-attacks-experts-say/?__lsa=8791-3f38
*and just about everything else they can get their HANDS on. . . http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/20/w...ume-attacks-on-us-targets.html?pagewanted=all

The Chinese are hacking EVERYTHING. They already have plans to most of the Western world's defence systems. They are hacking into the command and control centres of our major energy and transportation utilities. They are hacking into private companies, like Apple, in order to steal their patents and designs. . . It is grand-theft EVERYTHING. And most of these attacks are being run out of an address owned by the People's Liberation Army of China.

Here is a comprehensive conversation about this matter, from Charlie Rose, on May 28, 2013 ~ http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12949

************************************************

Well, oh! oh! oh! I am SO SHOCKED that the angel and martyr Edward Snowden has revealed that the U.S. has done some spying on a couple of CHINESE sites. . . .

Look, gentlemen, this is what is known as COUNTER-ESPIONAGE. The People's Republic of China is engaged in a systematic and government-sponsored attempt to STEAL and COPY the cream of Western military technology; and industrial and consumer technology ~ while obtaining the capacity to cripple our utilities, should they so choose. What ought we to do - ROLL OVER and DIE???

If our governments DIDN'T try to keep up with this threat - we ought to VOTE THEM OUT!!!!

********************************************************************************

It's getting late in the day, but. . . it's a little hard for me to believe that there are SO many nice people out there, who think Edward Snowden is some kind of HERO, and that China and Russia are just peachy and lovely places - while thinking WESTERN governments are purely evil, and conspiratorial. This point of view simply BAFFLES me. This world is not a kindergarten, and we are not just helpless, hapless tots: or at least, I HOPE we're not!

So, because I'm running out of time, here's my bottom line:
*China and Russia are NOT just pretty, lovely, tourist destinations - in which all their governments' aims are kindly and good, whereas ours are nasty and wicked. They are REAL power-players on the world stage, their governments' values differ significantly from ours, and they are playing for KEEPS.
*Edward Snowden is a little narcissist, who wanted more than anything else to be WORLD-FAMOUS: and now he's got his wish, and the media is FEEDING HIM, story by story. He doesn't care what happens to ANYBODY - he thinks he is the sexiest and smartest boy in the world, and, moreover, he wants to dictate policy to the entire Western world.
*Edward Snowden is ALSO a traitor, in the classical definition of the word, and, if this were 1913, he'd be court-martialed, and HUNG. (Justifiably.) Thankfully, it's 2013, so, if and when Volodya gets tired of playing with him, and he goes back to face the music - HOPEFULLY, he'll get sent to jail for the rest of his life.

That's it, that's all - yours, not entirely happily,
"A" ;-)))))))

*May liberty always prevail - but the terrorists and their allies, NEVER.*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFuUkObf4d8

 

[rrhill]

 

[Ambivalent]

LATE-BREAKING NEWS. . .

Now (apparently) Mr. Snowden is flying to Ecuador, a country about which "Human Rights Watch" says that journalists and media who criticize the government, are regularly subjected to "public denunciation, and retaliatory litigation." Here's a lovely precis of the countries Mr. Snowden thinks are more just, than his own. http://news.yahoo.com/memo-snowden-dont-try-ecuador-russia-cuba-venezuela-145434317.html

Just another little rat, sniffing around for a hole. . . . ;-) I hope he doesn't FIND one ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eIk5DWUx_E

"A"

* All about RATS ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5oIuMNO-Q8

 

[Ambivalent]

P.S. ~

If I were Mr. Snowden's boyfriend (or intelligence handler) I think I would have advised him: before you sell out to the Chinese and the Russians, at least have a serious conversation in Beijing, or Moscow, first. The Chinese are quite jolly, pragmatic, and easygoing. . . they might even KEEP the deal. The Russians, on the other hand, would TELL you that you had a bargain, and then just slip some polonium, into your coffee. (They're bastards, that way.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQEjwKs_hpg

Poor Eddie. Great self-publicist - BAD spy. I have a sense that all this is not going to end well. . . ;-))) He craved fame, and adoration - now he's got the first, from the world at large, and the second, from a significantly smaller number of people. . . But, from here on in, all he's gonna get (best-case scenario) is exile, and malaria. He would have had a lot more fun getting famous, as a model on "Chaturbate" ;-)

"A" ;-)

*Ah, he could have played his whole scam just a little bit SMARTER ;-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egIvTgfFJ9w

 

[rrhill]

Accused bank robber wants NSA phone records for his defense

Thu, Jun 13, 2013
Defense lawyers for Terrance Brown, a south Florida man facing bank robbery charges, have asked for NSA mobile phone surveillance records to be supplied in order to support his claim that he was not in the vicinity of the bank at the time it was robbed. He's referring to the leaked court order revealing that the NSA requires American phone companies to turn over the complete records of all their calls, including the location data about the callers.

The prosecution had told defense attorneys that they were unable to obtain Brown's cellphone records from the period before September 2010 because his carrier, MetroPCS, had not held on to them.

Not so fast, Brown's attorney Marshall Dore Louis argued in court documents filed in Fort Lauderdale days after the National Security Agency surveillance program was revealed last week...

...Louis argued in court Wednesday that the government should be forced to turn over phone location records for two cellphones Brown may have used because it could prove he was not present for one of the attempted bank robberies, on July 26 on Federal Highway in Lighthouse Point.
"The president of the United States has recognized this program has been ongoing since 2006 … to gather the phone numbers [and related information] of everybody including my client in 2010," Louis said.
source: http://boingboing.net/2013/06/13/accused-bank-robber-wants-nsa.html

 

[rrhill]

 

[rrhill]

 

[joninliverton]

If the police are allowed to use mobile phone company's data to prosecute then the accused should be able to use it in their defence.

 

[Huh?]

Thank you, Rick.

Hey All

I do sincerely apologize for the Nazi Germany reference. That was over the top and when I wrote it I was not even thinking of the killing they did. I was fixated on them collecting data on their own people to see if they were of a certain religion or if they were against the movement.
I would never suggest that all of the senseless killing done in Germany, Poland and other places under Hitler is remotely similar to what is going on here. Also I am not just picking on Obama. As I said Bush did things that upset me too. Personally I think all of Washington should be broomed!

And Jon, thanks for standing up for me. I "am" a young guy but I have accomplished more at 25 then most will do in a lifetime. So I should and DO know better. My comparison was wrong and I should not have used it. My sincere apologizes to those I offended. One should never rant when super tired at 3am after a really hard day. So no more venting or writing from me.
Sincerely
Rick Bell

Aloha Rick,

Thank you for posting this comment, and I'm sorry I didn't respond to it sooner--I don't log into the forums frequently. I sincerely apologize to you if my remarks to the original post appeared overly harsh. I hate politics with a passion that I can not easily describe, and politics in America is an out of control beast. The partisan rhetoric has become so crazy and virulent that it feels as if some kind of widespread insanity has set in. So, I get really upset whenever I see further evidence of this. I'll be totally honest with you all--the level of partisanship in our government right now frightens me *FAR* more than any internal government spying or external (or internal) terrorist threat, because those attitudes are like a cancer rapidly eating this country from the inside out. If the country is dying, as Rick states, that partisanship is the root cause of the death in my opinion. If this madness were contained in Washington, maybe it wouldn't bother me as much, but it has sent its tendrils out to the farthest reaches of the country, turning ordinary citizens into rabid partisan hacks. It is almost impossible to have rational discourse about anything. EVERYTHING is seen through a partisan lens (racism, religion, the environment, equal rights, employment, pick your topic), and as a result, there is no opportunity for compromise and nothing of value gets done. The finger pointing is constant, which only heightens the partisan rhetoric setting us in this terrifying feedback loop. It is very difficult to watch this happen. I don't think it can continue for much longer before people snap and start trying to "correct" perceived problems on their own. Please don't think this is some kind of extremist nonsense--there has already been signs of such sentiments in certain quarters around the country, particularly during the current Presidency.

All this to say that I actually AGREE with you that there is a serious problem, a sickness, in this country. If, however, we refuse to look at these issues rationally, and talk about them in completely honest terms, then we are only contributing to the irrational partisan rancor and will not see the problem for what it actually is. No single person is to blame for the ills in this country right now. The current administration is most certainly not completely to blame for the current situation. This has been developing for DECADES, and WE ARE ALL TO BLAME for allowing it. We are the ones who keep ping-ponging between Democrats and Republicans every election cycle. We are the ones who allow this "red state-blue state" nonsense. We are the ones who are allowing all issues to be boiled down to "us vs. them," "liberal vs. conservative." I have very little hope that this is going to change unless something drastic happens and throws the country into complete turmoil for some period of time.

NSA scandal? I think it is a tempest in a thimble relative to this much more insidious problem.