Scotland Decides

[joninliverton]

This last few weeks has seen both parties up the ante in a last ditch effort to get the Yes or No votes on Scottish independence. My personal view is that they should stay as part of the union, but the polls last sunday had the yes vote in front for the first time. A big influence is that people can vote from 16 plus the Scottish people who live and work outside of Scotland cannot vote - very clever Mr Salmond. The vote is this coming Thursday.

Many of the big banking and pension institutions that are based in Scotland have said that if there is a Yes vote then they will move their headquarters to London. Another main issue is of currency when the uk govt have told the scots that they will not be able to keep our currency should they decide to leave - I agree with that too.

Seems like Mr salmon wants to have his cake and eat it, to coin a phrase - coin being the important word lol.

 

[Ambivalent]

This last few weeks has seen both parties up the ante in a last ditch effort to get the Yes or No votes on Scottish independence. My personal view is that they should stay as part of the union, but the polls last sunday had the yes vote in front for the first time. A big influence is that people can vote from 16 plus the Scottish people who live and work outside of Scotland cannot vote - very clever Mr Salmond. The vote is this coming Thursday.

Many of the big banking and pension institutions that are based in Scotland have said that if there is a Yes vote then they will move their headquarters to London. Another main issue is of currency when the uk govt have told the scots that they will not be able to keep our currency should they decide to leave - I agree with that too.

Seems like Mr salmon wants to have his cake and eat it, to coin a phrase - coin being the important word lol.

***********************************

Dear Mr. Liverton ~

I'll tell you one thing: Mr. Salmond better hope he never meets ME, in a dark alley ;-)

From my perspective, as a Scots-Canadian, this referendum is a ridiculous proposition. In terms of both process, and substance.

Regarding process: Why is it that 16-year-olds can vote in the referendum, and new immigrants to Scotland can vote in the referendum, but Scots abroad who are simply expatriates, or who have dual citizenship (and I have several friends in this situation) CANNOT? If memory serves me correctly, in every U.S. general election, expatriates get mailed ballots, and are able to vote for the next President.

Why shouldn't Scots who've gone abroad - - - and they are some of the most accomplished and successful ones, of all - - - be denied the opportunity, to vote for the FUTURE of their COUNTRY?

Regarding substance: Are you kidding me??? In this wicked, complex world, to venture the proposition that you will relinquish the reality of being part of a larger, stronger, country, to become a WEAK and WEE and TINY ONE - propped up solely on dwindling oil revenues, with NO national defence, while Russian submarines are prowling in increasing schools off the coast - seems like MADNESS, to me.

National finance, currency, health-care, welfare, and defence - will ALL suffer if Scotland secedes from the Union. Not to mention, there are THOUSANDS of Scots pursuing marvelous careers in English universities, and English companies. Just about every Scotsman, or woman, has family living across the border - should there now be passports, for them to see their loved-ones?

Should Scotland keep the pound sterling, without having any say in the management of the pound sterling - risking becoming a second Panama (which made the U.S. dollar its currency, without having any control over it): subject to inflation or deflation or running out of currency altogether? Should Scotland try to join the Euro, and wind up another Portugal, at the mercy of Mrs. Merkel's monetary policy?

ONCE Scotland has seceded from the U.K., and robbed the U.K. of its only viable nuclear submarine base - jeopardizing the U.K.'s national defence, and its position in NATO, and its seat on the U.N. Security Council. . . and Salmond is clearly on record as wanting to dispense with the Trident deterrent programme. . . how is Scotland going to DEFEND its last bit of remaining oil? How will Scotland DEFEND itself from Russian espionage? Will they scare Mr. Putin's minions away, with BAGPIPES?

And - as imperfect as it is - how will Scotland keep up the NHS, with such a tiny, wee little tax-base, anymore? How will they afford social welfare, and child protection services, and all those things???

Mr. Salmond (and I use the term "Mister", ironically) hasn't been able to answer ANY of these questions. He says, "Oh, it will be a new era of confidence, and optimism." Well, that's a lovely sentiment, but a pretty silly one, too. Because if there is one thing ANY REAL SCOTSMAN should know, it is that you need MONEY, to do ANYTHING. (As you all English lads will all know, the BANK of ENGLAND was founded by a Scotsman, William Paterson - who was an advocate of Union, too.)

********************************************************

To my mind, this is a horror-show. All of it. And of course MY mind might be clouded by romantic notions - because, in days of yore, it was Scots who were in the vanguard of the Empire, and who were the first to settle countries like Canada, and Australia. Scottish families like mine feel a strong attachment to the U.K., because it was our means to prosperity and happiness.

But, again, even from a current-day, cold-hearted, practical point of view: Scotland has so much to lose, if it exits the union. As Jeffrey Simpson - another Canadian of Scots descent - said in the Globe, last week: If Scotland votes for this, it is voting for "a poorer, and less significant future." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/a-separated-scotland-pound-foolish/article20566276/

***********************************************************************************

Mr. Liverton, the latest polls suggest that the "no" side of the referendum is pulling ahead slightly, again - after last week's tremor, indicating that the separatists would win. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/13/alex-salmond-scotland-needs-undecided-voters-poll

Even this is damned outrageous, however. It's scandalous that the fraudulent, kilted, Salmondeers should have gained such traction in this debate - and it SHAMES ME, as someone of Scottish descent, that Scots could actually BELIEVE HIM. It's utterly horrible.

*************************************************************************

And, if the Salmondeers WIN, next week, I suppose I will have a BIG DECISION to make. I think I will have to revise my family history, and tell the world that my Mother's family came. . . from NORWAY.

Sero sed serio
"A", from Kilwinning :-((((((

"The Tartan": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UABathL6QHg

"Amazing Grace" ~ The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8AeV8Jbx6M

 

[Ambivalent]

P.S.

My buddy Ewan McGregor says, "I'm a Scotsman, and I love Scotland with all my heart. But I also like the idea of Great Britain, and I don't know that it wouldn't be a terrible shame, to break it all up." Ewan's bro, Colin, is a pilot in the R.A.F.

"A" XOXOXOXOXO

 

[joninliverton]

Great post as always Ambi. You should send it to the Times or one of the Scottish newspapers.

 

[mtfrc81]

Most of the coverage on this complicated issue has had to come from the BBC. The news in the States has, of course, covered it but to me done so in a minimalist fashion. I'm am very surprised that the whole thing has gone as far as it had. GB without Scotland doesn't make any sense to me. How the vote is being run is about as ass backwards as it gets... especially with such a major issue! If this we're going on here I'd bet a State would pull similar games with the voters. You can bet my home state of Ohio would!

 

[tampa24]

Great posts Ambi. I'm in shock to think this could actually happen. Independence for Scotland would diminish the power and influence of both remaining countries. Given the resulting loss of economic influence and military power in a remaining Britain, I could see some countries demanding it be stripped of its permanent U.N. Security Council seat.

I'm far from an expert on Scottish history. So I'm not in a position to preach or moralize on this. It just seems though that both sides have so much to lose and so little to be gained in the 21st century by a Scotland looking to gain more respect for its history and culture at home and on the world stage. GB is right to tell them that if they want to go it alone, that will do so without the pound. If they delude themselves into thinking the EU will just take them right back in and immediately let them go on the Euro, I think they will be in for a nasty surprise.

 

[joninliverton]

They've got as much chance of joining the EU as Catalonia has. Spain said it would veto any Scottish attempt to join based on the issue it is having with Catalonia.. Plus before a country joins the EU it has to pass stringent economic tests, there no way Scotland could meet these measures until it became established.

If I were a Scot working overseas then I would go to the court of human rights to declare this referendum void and illegal. There are thousands of proud Scots working all over the world, in order to get a decent lifestyle that they cannot get in their country. It is similar to Wales - the big money is in the big cities like London. Both Wales and Scotland, as nice as they are to visit, rely heavily on tourism because primarily that is all that is there. I think the uk goverment was wrong to allow Scotland a vote in such circumstances and with such rules (the 16 vote etc).

 

[Ambivalent]

Most of the coverage on this complicated issue has had to come from the BBC. The news in the States has, of course, covered it but to me done so in a minimalist fashion. I'm am very surprised that the whole thing has gone as far as it had. GB without Scotland doesn't make any sense to me. How the vote is being run is about as ass backwards as it gets... especially with such a major issue! If this we're going on here I'd bet a State would pull similar games with the voters. You can bet my home state of Ohio would!

************************************

MT - when The Guardian telephoned the U.S. State Department, to ask for American comment, they couldn't even find anyone who knew the referendum was even going ON!

"A"

 

[tampa24]

************************************

MT - when The Guardian telephoned the U.S. State Department, to ask for American comment, they couldn't even find anyone who knew the referendum was even going ON!

"A"

That works both ways though Ambi. It looks bad for a staunch ally and superpower to be caught unawares at the upper echelons of the referendum. On the other hand if the State Department had come out immediately with a prepared statement, it would have been criticized for that too. If the U.S. took a quick position favoring one side over the other...Duh!...How could they not?...then whichever side didn't like the answer would accuse the U.S. of meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign state. The Scotts would see it that way even if they don't yet have a sovereign independent state.

 

[tampa24]

They've got as much chance of joining the EU as Catalonia has. Spain said it would veto any Scottish attempt to join based on the issue it is having with Catalonia.. Plus before a country joins the EU it has to pass stringent economic tests, there no way Scotland could meet these measures until it became established.

Exactly.

 

[Ambivalent]

Great posts Ambi. I'm in shock to think this could actually happen. Independence for Scotland would diminish the power and influence of both remaining countries. Given the resulting loss of economic influence and military power in a remaining Britain, I could see some countries demanding it be stripped of its permanent U.N. Security Council seat.

I'm far from an expert on Scottish history. So I'm not in a position to preach or moralize on this. It just seems though that both sides have so much to lose and so little to be gained in the 21st century by a Scotland looking to gain more respect for its history and culture at home and on the world stage. GB is right to tell them that if they want to go it alone, that will do so without the pound. If they delude themselves into thinking the EU will just take them right back in and immediately let them go on the Euro, I think they will be in for a nasty surprise.

***********************************

Tamps,

I agree. Jeffrey Simpson, in his article, cited above, said it best: "Scotland and England have been joined in Great Britain, since 1707. This union has lasted for more than three centuries, without internal strife, except the inevitable political kind. By any measurable, comparable standard - economic prosperity, defence of human liberties, political stability, international heft - it has been an enormous success."

And, he asked these questions, about Scotland in the Union: "Can people not speak their language, or practise their religious faiths? Are they discriminated against? Are their human rights abused? Is the economic deck stacked against them . . . ? Is there such disrespect directed toward them that. . . collective relations are uncomfortable, even intolerable? The answers to these fundamental questions - the ones on which a breakup should hang - are all resolutely 'no', in Scotland's case. . . "

What this is about, Tamps, is that it is an ego-trip for Alex Salmond; a romantic neo-Celtic fantasy for those who coddle such fantasies; and, most of all, for those bureaucrats and professional politicians who SURROUND Salmond, a foolish hope that they might win advancement in a SMALLER COUNTRY, which requires MORE politicians, and MORE bureaucrats.

It was the very same in Quebec - where an insular class of politicians and civil servants and some academics and bright-lights in the field of culture had been agitating for separation, for half a century, and took the question of separation RIGHT UP to the BRINK - until most quebecois said to themselves - "Hey! Canada isn't so bad! We got to keep (and promote) our language and culture. We get BIG transfer payments to help pay for our social programmes. And we get that nice Canadian passport, too - so, why not stay?"

Mr. Alex Salmond is cut from the same cloth as Mme. Pauline Marois - the latest separatist leader, from Quebec. In fairness, they BOTH may have genuine romantic notions about how beautiful Scotland, or Quebec, would be, as independent nations. (Without recognizing that neither Scottish nor quebecois culture would be so well-appreciated or recognized, at home or abroad, without the support of the U.K., or Canada, respectively.)

BUT, lurking beneath BOTH their smiles, for the camera (Mr. Salmond's, and Mme. Marois') is a fundamental insecurity. And an ethnic chauvinism. And the feeling that, "If ONLY we were our OWN country, based on our own SINGLE ethnicity ALONE - I COULD BE ON TOP!"

These are people with BIG FEARS, and SMALL AMBITIONS. Gentlemen, if I ever met Alex Salmond, I would ask him, "What's WRONG WITH YOU, LAD? If you want to change things so much, why don't YOU try to become Prime Minister of the United Kingdom? SCOTS have DONE this BEFORE - - what's the matter wi' YOU???" (There have been at least six Scots Prime Ministers of the U.K.)

That is a question for which Salmond has no answer. He isn't trying to make Scotland greater - he's trying to CUT IT DOWN to his own dwarf-like stature, so he can have a hope of RULING IT.

Truly, Scotland has NOTHING for which to apologize. She has given the world its greatest economist, Adam Smith; one of its greatest philosophers, David Hume; scores of great writers and thinkers and scientists and doctors and inventors and statesman, including the man who founded Canada, Sir John A. Macdonald. . . ALL within the embrace of Salmond's HATED U.K.

And it really pisses me off, that Alex Salmond is trying NOW, to CUT SCOTLAND DOWN, to his OWN TINY SIZE.

"A"

*Just for fun, listen to Stephen Fry reel off a list of inventions and "firsts", that Scotland has given the world ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-aaUFbi6u4

*I think it is time for Scotland to say FAREWELL to Alex Salmond. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFuUkObf4d8

 

[joninliverton]

The Queen's unofficial view

From the bbc

The Queen has said she hopes "people will think very carefully about the future" ahead of the Scottish independence referendum.
The comment to a well-wisher outside church near her Balmoral estate in Aberdeenshire.
It follows reports claiming the Queen was growing increasingly concerned about the 18 September vote.
Royal officials have insisted her comment did not breach the monarch's constitutional impartiality.
The Queen's comment came as she spoke to a member of the public outside the church at Crathie.
When the well-wisher joked that they were not going to mention the referendum, the Queen remarked: "Well, I hope people will think very carefully about the future."
'Serious reflection'
Following previous reports that Her Majesty was growing increasingly concerned about Scottish independence, Buckingham Palace issued a statement which read: "The sovereign's constitutional impartiality is an established principle of our democracy and one which the Queen has demonstrated throughout her reign.
"As such, the monarch is above politics and those in political office have a duty to ensure this remains the case.
"Any suggestion that the Queen would wish to influence the outcome of the current referendum campaign is categorically wrong. Her Majesty is simply of the view this is a matter for the people of Scotland."
The BBC's royal correspondent Peter Hunt said: "This wasn't a slip of the tongue by the head of state of the United Kingdom - rather a reflection of how seriously, she like many others, views the significance of Thursday's vote."

 

[tampa24]

A great post Ambi. If you're a small fish in a big pond with delusions of grandeur, it makes sense that you would hope to at least become the biggest fish in a smaller pond. But how to make the pond smaller? Hmm...

 

[juanjo]

I can promise you that were Quebec ever to leave Canada, the USA own it lock, stock and barrel the next day. Not out of any love for the fine Frenchophiles who live there and who think that gibberish they speak is French but because the resources there are of use to Uncle Sam. The Scots are fine people and I love the ones I know here in the states dearly. I have never met a one who supported this referendum either. If Scotland thinks for second it has the where withal to go it alone they need to look at Nauru or some of the other small nations with dwindling resources. They will be so poor the Irish will look at them and say. "well things could be worse".

 

[tampa24]

With Scotland 5 hours ahead of us, the voting will begin at about 2:00 am for us here in the Eastern time zone. I'm rather nervous for them myself.

 

[another1]

2 centuries ago, leaving was much harder. leaving a long-term union has profound implications. I hope reason wins.
sometimes, having is not as rewarding as wanting.

 

[joninliverton]

Well virtually all the campaigning is over now, so it is up to the Scottish people to decide their fate. I was watching some of the kids in the street today (16s and over) all waving yes banners. They don't know what they're voting for.

 

[danleeh1984]

With Scotland 5 hours ahead of us, the voting will begin at about 2:00 am for us here in the Eastern time zone. I'm rather nervous for them myself.

I just hope that they make the right choice as its not like voting for government as once this is done its done for good. Theres so many people telling the Scottish people what's best and what will happen either way but I dont think there's enough people telling them how it will effect the normal person on a daily basis and That's what frightens me. I guess after tomorrow we will know but for me personally I hope they don't choose to leave as I believe that we are stronger together and not divided. Dan x

 

[danleeh1984]

Well virtually all the campaigning is over now, so it is up to the Scottish people to decide their fate. I was watching some of the kids in the street today (16s and over) all waving yes banners. They don't know what they're voting for.

I thought the same thing and I think I watched somewhere that there letting younger than normal people vote as well.

 

[another1]

the first minister wants to leave the united kingdom and keep the queen and the pound. there would be a prime minister of Scotland, a british currency, and a british monarch. sounds good for the first minister.