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WARNING - Do NOT enter this thread if you are easily "offended" by words.

This is me talking as a member of the site:

You are WAY OVER your speeding limit and quite frankly, i'm so tired of your neverending rants. It's not the fact you guys talk about religions, politics... it's how the arguements are brought.

I told you exactly what i thought about you and still, you keep bringing things in an aggressive manner.
THIS IS A PORN SITE for crying out loud.

Oh yeah personally, people claiming they are "assholes" and proud of it have no place in my life.

Like you said, this is Mark's board and it's his choice.
Peace out :)

Steve,

Thanks for sharing. Free speech is a wonderful thing. Thank you for calling me an asshole.

Peace and love to you to baby, :001_wub:

Mitch
 
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Urgh so typical. Don't turn that on me, you called yourself an asshole in this very own thread and looking very proud of it :)

Edit: you said "I can talk like this to Slim because we are "asshole buddies". I didn't say it.
 
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Urgh so typical. Don't turn that on me, you called yourself an asshole in this very own thread and looking very proud of it :)


Well that is your interpretation. You are certainly welcomed to your opinion.


love you as always.

your brother in Christ,

M.
 
This talk was given at a debate on the motion 'Freedom of expression must include the licence to offend'. The debate was organised by Intelligence Squared and took place at the Royal Geographical Society in London on 7 June 2006.




'freedom of expression must include the licence to offend'


'I believe in free speech. But...' That's become the rallying cry for the liberal left particularly in the wake of the Danish cartoon controversy. You can say what you like. Just so long as you don't offend anyone.

Free speech may be a good, runs the argument, but speech must necessarily be less free in a plural society. As the sociologist Tariq Modood puts it, 'If people are to occupy the same political space without conflict, they mutually have to limit the extent to which they subject each others' fundamental beliefs to criticism'. One of the ironies of living in a plural society, it seems, is that the preservation of diversity requires us to leave less room for a diversity of views.

I believe the opposite is true. In a homogenous society in which everyone thought in exactly the same way then the giving of offence would be nothing more than gratuitous. But in the real world where societies are plural, then it is both inevitable and important that people offend the sensibilities of others. Inevitable, because where different beliefs are deeply held, clashes are unavoidable. And we should deal with those clashes rather than suppress them. Important because any kind of social change or social progress means offending some deeply held sensibilities. The right to 'subject each others' fundamental beliefs to criticism' is the bedrock of an open, diverse society. 'If liberty means anything', as George Orwell once put it, 'it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear'.

Ah, say the would-be censors, but should we not also ensure that minorities are not deliberately denigrated? Is it not incumbent on a civilised society to protect the powerless and the vulnerable? Indeed it is. But ask yourself this: who is it that benefits most from censorship? Not the powerless and the vulnerable but rather those that possess both the power to censor and the necessity to do so.

The impact of censorship is in fact to undermine progressive movements within minority communities. Take the controversy over the Danish cartoons. There's a general assumption that all Muslims were offended by the cartoons and that all Muslims wished to ban them. Not true. Bünyamin Simsek is a Muslim councillor in the Danish city of Aarhus who helped organize a counter-demonstration to the cartoon protests. 'There is', he says, 'a large group of Muslims in this city who want to live in a secular society and adhere to the principle that religion is an issue between them and God and not something that should involve society'. He is not alone. But such voices get silenced in the rush to censor that which is deemed to cause offence.

The censors are helping to strengthen the hand of the most conservative elements and to undermine those who want to challenge tradition and authority. That's why groups such as Southall Black Sisters - an organisation of Asian women activists that for more than 20 years has been combating both racism and discrimination against women - strenuously oppose the idea that the giving of offence should be forbidden. As Rahila Gupta of Southall Black Sisters put it recently, such censorship 'will strengthen the voices of religious intolerance and choke off women's right to dissent'. And this, she observed 'is too high a price to pay to appease an alienated community'.

Of course, many of those who give offence are not progressive at all, but bigots - racists or homophobes. But people must be as free to offend against liberal orthodoxies as against reactionary ones. Free speech for everyone except bigots is not free speech at all. The right to free speech only has political bite when we are forced to defend the rights of people whose views we despise.

In any case, you cannot challenge bigoted ideas by banning them. You simply let the sentiments fester underground. Free speech does not mean accepting all views. It means having all views in the open so we can challenge the ones we find unconscionable. Today, though, we do the exact opposite: there are certain views we ban because they are deemed too unpalatable. But there are other views we are too frightened of challenging because we don't want to give offence to diverse cultures.

But you've got us all wrong, say the censors. We're not out to censor. All we want is to do is ensure respect for all beliefs and cultures. What's being demanded, however, is not respect but obedience. 'You will only say or do what we think is acceptable' has become the credo of the multiculturalist censor. It's a view that turns the notion of respect on its head.
In its traditional Kantian sense, respect requires us to treat every human being equally as a moral, autonomous being. Every individual possesses the capacity to express political and moral views and to act upon them. And every individual is responsible for their views and actions and is capable of being judged by them. The importance of free speech is that it is an expression of individual moral autonomy, the capacity of people to engage in a robust debate about their beliefs and their actions - and to bear the consequences.

The multiculturalist censor demands respect not just for the person but for also his or her beliefs. And in so doing they undermine individual autonomy, both by constraining the right of people to criticise others' beliefs and by insisting that individuals who hold those beliefs are too weak or vulnerable to stand up to criticism, satire or abuse. Far from according respect, the multiculturalist censor treats people not as autonomous beings but as incapable victims needing special protection. The result is an auction of victimhood as every group attempts to outbid all others as the one feeling most offended. The latest to jump on to the bandwagon are Hindus; a group calling itself Hindu Human Rights successfully shut down an exhibition by the Indian artist MF Hussain in London last month on the grounds that his paintings of Hindu deities were offensive.
The irony of censorship in the name of multiculturalism is that it undermines much of what is valuable about cultural diversity. When we talk about diversity, what we mean is that the world is a messy place, full of clashes and conflicts. That is all for the good, for such clashes and conflicts are the stuff of political and cultural engagement. The censors, however, seem frightened of the mess, and want everything nicely parcelled up, free of conflict, all neat and ordered. 'Respect' has become the major tool through which they hope to enforce such order.

Well, it's time we stood up for a little less respectful order and a little more messy engagement. It's time we recognised that giving offence is a normal part of a plural society. And it's time we defended free speech. Full stop. No buts.
 
This talk was given at a debate on the motion 'Freedom of expression must include the licence to offend'. The debate was organised by Intelligence Squared and took place at the Royal Geographical Society in London on 7 June 2006.




'freedom of expression must include the licence to offend'


'I believe in free speech. But...' That's become the rallying cry for the liberal left particularly in the wake of the Danish cartoon controversy. You can say what you like. Just so long as you don't offend anyone.

Free speech may be a good, runs the argument, but speech must necessarily be less free in a plural society. As the sociologist Tariq Modood puts it, 'If people are to occupy the same political space without conflict, they mutually have to limit the extent to which they subject each others' fundamental beliefs to criticism'. One of the ironies of living in a plural society, it seems, is that the preservation of diversity requires us to leave less room for a diversity of views.

I believe the opposite is true. In a homogenous society in which everyone thought in exactly the same way then the giving of offence would be nothing more than gratuitous. But in the real world where societies are plural, then it is both inevitable and important that people offend the sensibilities of others. Inevitable, because where different beliefs are deeply held, clashes are unavoidable. And we should deal with those clashes rather than suppress them. Important because any kind of social change or social progress means offending some deeply held sensibilities. The right to 'subject each others' fundamental beliefs to criticism' is the bedrock of an open, diverse society. 'If liberty means anything', as George Orwell once put it, 'it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear'.

Ah, say the would-be censors, but should we not also ensure that minorities are not deliberately denigrated? Is it not incumbent on a civilised society to protect the powerless and the vulnerable? Indeed it is. But ask yourself this: who is it that benefits most from censorship? Not the powerless and the vulnerable but rather those that possess both the power to censor and the necessity to do so.

The impact of censorship is in fact to undermine progressive movements within minority communities. Take the controversy over the Danish cartoons. There's a general assumption that all Muslims were offended by the cartoons and that all Muslims wished to ban them. Not true. Bünyamin Simsek is a Muslim councillor in the Danish city of Aarhus who helped organize a counter-demonstration to the cartoon protests. 'There is', he says, 'a large group of Muslims in this city who want to live in a secular society and adhere to the principle that religion is an issue between them and God and not something that should involve society'. He is not alone. But such voices get silenced in the rush to censor that which is deemed to cause offence.

The censors are helping to strengthen the hand of the most conservative elements and to undermine those who want to challenge tradition and authority. That's why groups such as Southall Black Sisters - an organisation of Asian women activists that for more than 20 years has been combating both racism and discrimination against women - strenuously oppose the idea that the giving of offence should be forbidden. As Rahila Gupta of Southall Black Sisters put it recently, such censorship 'will strengthen the voices of religious intolerance and choke off women's right to dissent'. And this, she observed 'is too high a price to pay to appease an alienated community'.

Of course, many of those who give offence are not progressive at all, but bigots - racists or homophobes. But people must be as free to offend against liberal orthodoxies as against reactionary ones. Free speech for everyone except bigots is not free speech at all. The right to free speech only has political bite when we are forced to defend the rights of people whose views we despise.

In any case, you cannot challenge bigoted ideas by banning them. You simply let the sentiments fester underground. Free speech does not mean accepting all views. It means having all views in the open so we can challenge the ones we find unconscionable. Today, though, we do the exact opposite: there are certain views we ban because they are deemed too unpalatable. But there are other views we are too frightened of challenging because we don't want to give offence to diverse cultures.

But you've got us all wrong, say the censors. We're not out to censor. All we want is to do is ensure respect for all beliefs and cultures. What's being demanded, however, is not respect but obedience. 'You will only say or do what we think is acceptable' has become the credo of the multiculturalist censor. It's a view that turns the notion of respect on its head.
In its traditional Kantian sense, respect requires us to treat every human being equally as a moral, autonomous being. Every individual possesses the capacity to express political and moral views and to act upon them. And every individual is responsible for their views and actions and is capable of being judged by them. The importance of free speech is that it is an expression of individual moral autonomy, the capacity of people to engage in a robust debate about their beliefs and their actions - and to bear the consequences.

The multiculturalist censor demands respect not just for the person but for also his or her beliefs. And in so doing they undermine individual autonomy, both by constraining the right of people to criticise others' beliefs and by insisting that individuals who hold those beliefs are too weak or vulnerable to stand up to criticism, satire or abuse. Far from according respect, the multiculturalist censor treats people not as autonomous beings but as incapable victims needing special protection. The result is an auction of victimhood as every group attempts to outbid all others as the one feeling most offended. The latest to jump on to the bandwagon are Hindus; a group calling itself Hindu Human Rights successfully shut down an exhibition by the Indian artist MF Hussain in London last month on the grounds that his paintings of Hindu deities were offensive.
The irony of censorship in the name of multiculturalism is that it undermines much of what is valuable about cultural diversity. When we talk about diversity, what we mean is that the world is a messy place, full of clashes and conflicts. That is all for the good, for such clashes and conflicts are the stuff of political and cultural engagement. The censors, however, seem frightened of the mess, and want everything nicely parcelled up, free of conflict, all neat and ordered. 'Respect' has become the major tool through which they hope to enforce such order.

Well, it's time we stood up for a little less respectful order and a little more messy engagement. It's time we recognised that giving offence is a normal part of a plural society. And it's time we defended free speech. Full stop. No buts.

Does your research show which side won the debate?
 
Does your research show which side won the debate?

This was not a college debate team where they score points. This was an adult thing where opposing views are simply presented for the audience. Everybody gets polite appluase at the end and shakes hands, etc.
 
I am a very passionate and involved individual and in my 54 years I have found that though many causes have merit, one should not engage in every battle. Pick the ones you are sure to win and save the rest for those with the stamina and wit to fight them. I can't save the world but I can save a piece of it.
 
Be true to yourself. Someone said that a long time age and it stills hold value today. If I try to please everyone I will always fail. But if I am honest with my feelings without being offensive, then maybe I can sleep peacefully at night. I have disagreed with people before sometimes very passionately but I think we were still friends afterwards. As I grow older, I have become very much aware how transient sex and its allurements are and ultimately the only thing I have is myself. Finally it is friendship that holds us together.
 
Be true to yourself. Someone said that a long time age and it stills hold value today. If I try to please everyone I will always fail. But if I am honest with my feelings without being offensive, then maybe I can sleep peacefully at night. I have disagreed with people before sometimes very passionately but I think we were still friends afterwards. As I grow older, I have become very much aware how transient sex and its allurements are and ultimately the only thing I have is myself. Finally it is friendship that holds us together.

If you accept that you cannot please all the people all of the time, then you will end up offending someone and there is nothing wrong with that. If you do not offend anyone it means that you are either not being true to yourself or you are indeed pleasing all the people all of the time, which we know is impossible.
 
My Opinion, Right, Wrong Or Indifferent!

Originally Posted by scorpio
This is me talking as a member of the site:

You are WAY OVER your speeding limit and quite frankly, i'm so tired of your neverending rants. It's not the fact you guys talk about religions, politics... it's how the arguements are brought.

I told you exactly what i thought about you and still, you keep bringing things in an aggressive manner.
THIS IS A PORN SITE for crying out loud.

Oh yeah personally, people claiming they are "assholes" and proud of it have no place in my life.

Like you said, this is Mark's board and it's his choice.
Peace out :)
Well that is your interpretation. You are certainly welcomed to your opinion.
Open post to Scorpio....

So Mitch is exceeding your speed limit....so what! You're tired of his rants....so what! BTW, I beg to differ with you on your interpretation of: "This Is A Porn Site For Crying Out Loud". This is a Forum Site that is broken into two parts: the frank discussion of anything we want to talk about, called "General Chat Forum"....and the other is "Broke Straight Boys Related Topics".

The two threads that Mitch has posted have probably exceeded his wild imagination in regard to the posts and interest generated by his posting in the first place. His first post: "Quotes From Abe Lincoln"....has had 78 additional posts and garnered more than 503 views. This current post, "Warning....Do Not Enter"....has had 67 posts and 562 views. These posts were not an afterthought, they were purposely well thought out, designed to invoke passion, and awaken the thought processes of the mind. I welcome the thoughts, opinions, and other responses of the members to these threads. I have read them all, and I have learned some interesting facts from doing so. While I don't always agree with the posts or responses, that is my perogative, same as yours....I do let the posters have their say without interjecting my personal opinion. No one is forced to read them....don't like em....don't read em, unless of course you have a magic key on your computer that forces you to read them.

To further clarify your comment regarding "asshole buddies", this is an American slang term. It is a familiar form of endearment that describes two very good friends. If somebody called me his "asshole buddy", I would be very flattered that I have his friendship and respect....And so, like all other posts in the Forum....this is my opnion.
 
Open post to Scorpio....

So Mitch is exceeding your speed limit....so what! You're tired of his rants....so what! BTW, I beg to differ with you on your interpretation of: "This Is A Porn Site For Crying Out Loud". This is a Forum Site that is broken into two parts: the frank discussion of anything we want to talk about, called "General Chat Forum"....and the other is "Broke Straight Boys Related Topics".

The two threads that Mitch has posted have probably exceeded his wild imagination in regard to the posts and interest generated by his posting in the first place. His first post: "Quotes From Abe Lincoln"....has had 78 additional posts and garnered more than 503 views. This current post, "Warning....Do Not Enter"....has had 67 posts and 562 views. These posts were not an afterthought, they were purposely well thought out, designed to invoke passion, and awaken the thought processes of the mind. I welcome the thoughts, opinions, and other responses of the members to these threads. I have read them all, and I have learned some interesting facts from doing so. While I don't always agree with the posts or responses, that is my perogative, same as yours....I do let the posters have their say without interjecting my personal opinion. No one is forced to read them....don't like em....don't read em, unless of course you have a magic key on your computer that forces you to read them.

To further clarify your comment regarding "asshole buddies", this is an American slang term. It is a familiar form of endearment that describes two very good friends. If somebody called me his "asshole buddy", I would be very flattered that I have his friendship and respect....And so, like all other posts in the Forum....this is my opnion.




I'd say that pretty well sums up the situation. hehehehehe :biggrin:
 
Not interested. Mitch knows exactly what we're asking from him. This is not a question about the type of threads you guys can post... Hell, you can post anything you want. We only have problems with him attacking people. He even attacked the site, so i'm really wondering why Mitch is here if Broke Straight Boys is so "mediocre", like he said.

I personally received quite a few complaints about RSWAIN, i mean Mitch sorry. So let's not go there again.
We are sooo tired of it.

We're only asking people to enjoy the forums. But lately, the board has been really unfrienly. Just a fact.
 
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I'm really done with you guys. I made my point. I told Mitch exactly what i thought of him. It's over. You guys can still have heated arguement, but we won't allow verbal attacks. PERIOD.

Once again, I AM DONE. There are other members on this board and i'd prefer interacting with them.
 
"So, how 'bout those Dolphins!" (Robin Williams in "The Birdcage")


moving right along..........
 
Lincolntyrant.jpg
 
Not interested. Mitch knows exactly what we're asking from him. This is not a question about the type of threads you guys can post... Hell, you can post anything you want. We only have problems with him attacking people. He even attacked the site, so i'm really wondering why Mitch is here if Broke Straight Boys is so "mediocre", like he said.

I personally received quite a few complaints about RSWAIN, i mean Mitch sorry. So let's not go there again.
We are sooo tired of it.

We're only asking people to enjoy the forums. But lately, the board has been really unfrienly. Just a fact.

Hey scorpio, his race rants were ugly and tiresome, but you have to admit he was everywhere on the forum, creating popular threads that lots of people enjoyed and posted on. You say he was in trouble for attacking other people. The other people he attacked weren't on the forum, they were the black residents of Atlanta, which is much worse.

If you guys got rid of him again because your subscribers were fed up and complained in private, that's understandable and I support you. Commerce is commerce. If you banned him for attacks on fellow forum members I think you made a mistake.

I defended rswaim against accusations of racism 2 months ago when he was banned the first time, truly believing he wasn't being racist about a black model called Axel. elyot was the one who tried to set me right. He saw the mask slip then and posted me the message below, on the 6th of January. Ban mitch because he's fucking up your forum, and therefore your business, or ban him for the tiresome racist he is, but not for attacks against other forum members to whom he was almost without exception "courteous" and "loving".

Originally Posted by elyot1
Seems a bit odd to me that a man, such as yourself, so dedicated to the truth would feel it was all right to stretch the truth a bit as long as it were being done to cover for a friend. I guess that makes you a good friend, but not a principled one. rswaim is too good with words to allow himself to be misunderstood. If he can rail on and on about Robert's limp dick, why say he would explain himself to David but not here? He seems to share all his views easily on the Forum, why not that one. Lets get real, lest you loose some credibility, rsaim lives in a free country and is entitled to his beliefs whether others agree with him or not, those beliefs don't make him a bad person. Its not being forthright in admitting you have a belief. I doubt that if Axel's skin were as pale as Tyler's we wouldn't be having this discussion. There! I've said it! Now we can all quit pretending there isn't an elephant in the Forum.

I was really dismissive of elyot in my answer to this post, to the point that a lot of good guys were convinced, mostly expressed in pvt msgs, by my further defense of rswaim. Lately I've been thinking about elyot a lot, and want to say I stand corrected, and even though it doesn't do any good now, that I'm sorry.

But his theory that I'm subconsciously enamored of Dustin is rubbish.
 
Mitch was banned for a lot of things. First of all, after receiving numerous complaints from actual members, we took a closer look at what Mitch was doing on the board. All he was doing was creating problems in every threads on the board making this place unfriendly. Several members even posted they would not post anymore because of him, and i'm not mentioning the private messages i received and emails.

Why do you think we took the "edit" option down to 3 minutes? it's because Mitch would post hateful/aggressive comments and then changed them all once things were out of control. It's not like i didn't try. We warned him soooo many times. All we asked from him was to cool down a bit, that's all. Something he just didn't want do to.

I'm not speaking for Mark but i don't think we want to jeopardize the board because of one individual. I've been reading a lot of threads lately, when you guys argue, it's done in a civil manner. Not at one point, i saw you guys viciously argue with someone. When Mitch would argue, it was aggressive. I didn't make it up, read all his posts, well at least the ones he couldn't edit.

We love you guys and we just wanted to do what had to be done.
 
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