Healthcare Reform Passes!!!

[silvercamel]

Oh,no, I thought of that the minute I hit submit. I meant it in the sense of every LGBT person in America. We've all been victims of him. Did you see Tim Kirkman's remarkable "Dear Jesse?" It was a documentary of his return to North Carolina to the roots he shared with Helms. There is a moment in it that is almost unbearable - out of the blue he interviews a young man, just a sweet faced student whose name flashes across the screen and disappears - it's like foreshadowing of the Helm's agenda in the worst way. You want to force that pompous old bigot to sit beside you and stare at what he and his cronies brought about. You want to make him see what the rest of us had to see. It's only a few seconds of Matthew Shephard before he returned to Wyoming. Jesse Helms gave voice to all those who advocated homophobia and by extension gave permission to those who carried it to extremes. When I think of Shephard tied to that split rail fence in the emptiness of that cold long night, I remember Eliots "The Hollow Men."
". . . . . voices are
In the wind's singing
More distant and more solemn
Than a fading star.
Let me be no nearer
In death's dream kingdom
Let me also wear
Such deliberate disguises
Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves
In a field
Behaving as the wind behaves
No nearer -
Not that final meeting
In the twilight kingdom."

And right wing talk radio this very minute is giving permission for those same peopLe who killed Matthew Shephard to "carry it to extremes."

 

[joeychuck2]

I was against parts of it ,then for parts of it ,now that it passed Im more confused. I like the idea of universal health care that sees everyone able to get medical care to make their lives possible, but don't think this will do it even at it's best. Now it looks like it will get tied up in more "fun and games".
Allowing filibusters and neverending ammendments points out how bad our system can be. I dont think the founding fathers ever meant this to happen. Hopefully it's a beginning that will get bettter overtime and not hurt people as it goes on.

 

[silvercamel]

I was against parts of it ,then for parts of it ,now that it passed Im more confused. I like the idea of universal health care that sees everyone able to get medical care to make their lives possible, but don't think this will do it even at it's best. Now it looks like it will get tied up in more "fun and games".
Allowing filibusters and neverending ammendments points out how bad our system can be. I dont think the founding fathers ever meant this to happen. Hopefully it's a beginning that will get bettter overtime and not hurt people as it goes on.

Besides expanding coverage, there are some really important changes:

-closing the donut hole for drugs - this is huge for people like me with serious (and expensive) medical issues

-eliminating "pre existing conditions" as a reason to deny coverage

-removing the cap on life time benefits

Not everything kicks in right away, which is unfortunate.

The "fun and games" that will be played out in the Senate will not in the end prevail - this Reform Bill will become law. Meanwhile, the opposition gets nastier and nastier - spiting and cursing and advocating violence. Dangerous time.

 

[joeychuck2]

Here in New York they said local congressmen in support of the bill got death threats and a congtresswoman had her windows broken. A Jewish congressman had antisemetic letters sent and as I write Anthony Weiner got white powder sent to him. Is this the America that the Republicans want?

Medicare donut holes will take 10 years to fill. Other important things take too long to correct. pre existing conditions will take too long except for kids. BUT... it's a start

some really important changes:

-closing the donut hole for drugs - this is huge for people like me with serious (and expensive) medical issues

-eliminating "pre existing conditions" as a reason to deny coverage

-removing the cap on life time benefits

Not everything kicks in right away, which is unfortunate.

The "fun and games" that will be played out in the Senate will not in the end prevail - this Reform Bill will become law. Meanwhile, the opposition gets nastier and nastier - spiting and cursing and advocating violence. Dangerous time.[/QUOTE]

 

[angelone]

Finally! The USA can join the rest of the world that offer universal health care for its citizens. I'm in favor of capitalism but not if it means that millions of Americans may die for lack of health insurance. Vox populi has spoken!

 

[gremlin2k08]

lets not forget that it will become MANDATORY to carry health insurance. If you decide you do not want to carry it, then you will be required to pay an uninsured income tax. If you do not have coverage that follows the exact code that is established, you will also pay a tax.
I am all for change, this is something long overdue, but, not at the expense of the everyday American. If I no not wish to carry health insurance then I HAVE that right. I should not be penalized because of my choice, since it affects me alone. If I get sick then its on me. The doctors should have the right to refuse me if I cant pay in cash and do not have coverage. It was my choice and I alone have to deal with it.
If the bill follows as is right now, then every American who is old enough to drive should be required to purchase car insurance regardless of if they chose to drive and be taxed if they do not comply. Likewise, every American should be required to pay home insurance because they may 'ONE DAY' decide to buy a house.

As I said I am all for change, but NOT at the expense of the everyday American

 

[Jayman01]

I do agree with you to an extent. I am not sure what the answer is on the Health care issue. However; Just because I am not sick or on my death bed does not mean I won't be at some time in my life. I don't want a government regulated health care plan. I already deal with the VA. LOL

I do believe that I read that the health care plan will not come into effect until 2014. So, I say let's just get through 2012 first unscathed. LOL Also, the plan is supposed to be income based and it is supposed to allow single people who are not married access to free public health plans if their income level is below poverty. Unfortunately that means being on a government controlled health care plan but those people would be exempt from the uninsured tax.

I want to say health care should be free. That is not possible because approximately 60% or more of the population works in the field of health care in some capacity (i.e. doctor, nurse, lab technician, counselor, therapist, nutritionist, insurance claims processor, etc...) So, that would upset the economy tremendously if no one paid those workers. The question is where does the money come from to pay the health care workers to do their jobs when we are sick. Most people save a small next egg but it usually is not enough to cover all of the costs of a major hospital stay. Here is the thing either we pay an insurance premium out of pocket to the insurance company, or we pay it to the local medical establishment, or we pay it to the government if we wish to receive care. There are not a lot of choices there...

If we don't want care guaranteed then I think it should be acceptable to pay for care out of pocket. Now how do we deal with the bleeding heart liberals like me when others need medical help or you will die a painful and unpleasant death. They don't have the money for the treatment or surgery. So, we are just supposed to let them just lying in a bed and waiting to die and say, "look he/she had the choice to pay for health care and he/she refused." So, we will just let him/her die. He/she chose this for himself/herself so let him/her die needlessly because he/she cannot afford his/her own care and treatment... Wow, that should go over like a lead balloon to the moral majority. LOL

I know I am willing to pay a reasonable amount of money for my health care as long as I know I will receive only the services absolutely needed for my care. This is probably not the most perfect plan it can be but I do feel it is a step in the right direction. Hopefully, they will be able to address your issue in a later revision... The mandatory thing is a little hard to swallow. I totally understand. Thanks for sharing... Very thought provoking, thank you.

 

[aquarius]

Sorry Gremlin, but every American who chooses not to own a car is not likely to incur expenses for a car accident and every American who chooses not to own a house is not likely to incur expenses for damage to a house, but every American who chooses to operate a body is likely to incur repair expense on the repair and upkeep of it and, as a taxpayer, I am tired of bearing the expense of maintaining said upkeep for those who opted out and then crashed head on into a long term bout with cancer or aids or uninsured work site injury. Besides, as it is now, in car insurance, our rates already pay for the uninsured drivers anyway. Wouldn't it be better if they bore the expense themselves? The same argument was used against Social Security but I can't imagine anyone wanting to opt out. And as for private Social Security accounts - after this last plunge, why would anyone want to take the chance? Just an observation. Would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[gremlin2k08]

I understand where you are coming from on this and I agree the ppl who are uninsured who drive are the ones who need to be paying not everyone else. All I am saying regarding this is, if I do not want to have health coverage then I have that right. And like you said ppl who dont have a car may not have issues.... Someone who doesnt own a home likely will not have home repairs and the like, just like someone who takes care of their body ie eating healthy, exercising, and vitamins and the like, will not as easily get sick. BUT, it can happen.... I do not drive, but I have been hit by a driver while walking...... I do not own a home, I rent, but I have had someone break into my home...... Things can happen.... They do all the time, but it is my RIGHT to chose not to purchase something like that. I work out regularly and I eat healthy as well as meditation, yoga, and taking regular vitamins. I seldom get sick, and when I do it is usually just a head or chest cold. I deal with it.
I also fully agree regarding the social security thing..... I have a private account set up for my retirement, not a private social security planned account, because I dont feel social security will be around when I am ready to collect. I agree with being prepared and planning for what may happen, but it should be my choice if I decide to do so......

Regarding your post jayman........ the moral issue for the country is a laugh at best..... I know ppl who are more than capable of getting a job supporting them self who have been able to get better care, food, and assistance than what I was able to get when I first started out on my own(granted the economy is in a different state at the moment)...... If a doctor has a patient who say is in that situation it is up to the doctor if he wishes to treat said patient. It is that doctors moral issue to wrestle with.

Health care has been WAY overpriced. Ppl who work hard and still struggle to make it at the end of the week do need help. Ppl who are no longer able to or have never been able to work deserve to be shown compassion and care. I am not saying that Health reform is not needed..... What I am saying is this...... I have the right to chose what I get regarding insurance, including the option NOT to purchase it.

 

[Denny Bear]

This is a very interesting discussion and thank you Gremlin for bringing it up. With all do respect I do however disagree with you. While on paper your theory of having the right to just die if you want to might sound practical but in the real world it is a bit extreme and if you really feel that way of your own life you may be in need of some help. I think you will find that most people when put in the position of eminent danger of loosing their life would want the maximum care they could get to avert that situation. Also it is not considered normal to want to die so anyone stating that is considered to have a mental problem and is there fore in need of medical care.

So beyond those with a death wish lets look at the people that would maybe consider not wanting to purchase insurance. First those that really cant afford it, they are unemployed with a family and are spending the rent to buy food for the kids. As Jayman stated there is supposed to be help for those people to get them in the loop. Next and probably more abundant is the person who is working and making ends meet but likes to party and have nice things and buying insurance would cut into his fun time resources and since he is healthy as a horse why should he have to? Well accidents happen and even the healthiest people have dropped over dead from some underlying problem. So even though you may be healthy today you may not be tomorrow and referring back to item one it is not normal to want to die so there fore the American people are not going to let that happen to some one. So when this young man does get sick since we wont let him die who is going to pay the bill?

Beyond those I can think of no other practical reason that anyone would not want to have health insurance. You mentioned having a savings plan for your future. That is a great idea but what happens when you get to be 50 years old and because of some minor defect your now in need of a heart transplant. Again we wont let you just die so what do you think is going to happen to that savings program you HAD! So now your back broke again and living off the rest of us.

Another thing to consider is a young person might think they are in good health now at 21 why buy insurance now I will wait until I am 35 or 40 so I will have it for when I do get sick. Well good idea but unfortunately the system wont work that way. In order to be solvent and work for everybody the system has to have the input of younger healthy paying clients as well as the older ones needing the care. In other words if you don't pay now you wont have it to use later. Think of it like Social Security you pay in all your working life with the idea that it is going to be there when you retire. I know many people don't think it will still be around then but that's another subject.

For what it's worth at the time some people didn't like the idea of Social Security and probably more hated the idea of Medic Care but there are few people that would part with either of them now. One of the largest problems in the world today is GREED! Everyone is trying to get everyone else's money, and he who dies with the most money wins. I fear the future if we don't soon learn to show compassion for our fellow man. So Gremlin all I can say is we like you to much and were just not going to let you die so your going to have to buy health insurance.

 

[Jayman01]

Health care has been WAY overpriced. Ppl who work hard and still struggle to make it at the end of the week do need help. Ppl who are no longer able to or have never been able to work deserve to be shown compassion and care. I am not saying that Health reform is not needed..... What I am saying is this...... I have the right to chose what I get regarding insurance, including the option NOT to purchase it.

Gremlin, I agree with you that in a lot of cases it will end up in the doctor's hands. However; there is always that administrator looking at the bottom line telling the doctor, "No!"

Moving to your next point above. I totally agree with you. Health care is way over priced. My cousin is a chiropractor she purchases vitamins and supplements at 1/3 the cost she resells them for. However; she will sell them at cost for deserving clients in her opinion. (Those that need them and those who will try to help themselves the best they can) Wow, that is a hell of a choice to make...

Then we have pharmaceutical companies paying to put a doctor's kids through college just so they will push their brand of medication. (Yikes, yes that is a true story folks.)

Then I pay $197.00 to have an X-ray consultant make a mistake reading my X-rays and CT-Scans. What was the purpose in having the X-rays and CT scans in the first place??? (Personal experience)

HEALTH CARE IS WAY OVERPRICED AS IT IS... That is a fact. My question is similar to yours in that I want to know where the money is coming from? Can I refuse payment for incompetence? Who is responsible for the hospital's mistakes???

I hear what you are saying, If they are going to be allowed to be incompetent and and make mistakes that can cost us our lives why should we have to pay for health care out of our pockets??? We should be able to say no I won't pay for health care. I think the issue is if we don't pay for it on some level the gov't would need to intervene and they would also manage and regulate it... Ie. putting a nationally imposed 8% sales tax on all goods and services sold in the US to fund it or something like that. Obamaha's plan may not be the best plan out of the box but it is one that seems to meet what most people want to see in a health care plan for a start...

Very thought provoking thread thanks... I am still lost as to how to fund health care reform and keep pharmaceutical companies from profiting, keeping the government's hand out of the pocket.

 

[Troika]

I understand where you are coming from on this and I agree the ppl who are uninsured who drive are the ones who need to be paying not everyone else. All I am saying regarding this is, if I do not want to have health coverage then I have that right. And like you said ppl who dont have a car may not have issues.... Someone who doesnt own a home likely will not have home repairs and the like, just like someone who takes care of their body ie eating healthy, exercising, and vitamins and the like, will not as easily get sick. BUT, it can happen.... I do not drive, but I have been hit by a driver while walking...... I do not own a home, I rent, but I have had someone break into my home...... Things can happen.... They do all the time, but it is my RIGHT to chose not to purchase something like that.

I agree that if you don't want to buy insurance you shouldn't have too...but only if you cross your heart and hope to die, stick a needle in your eye, promise not to get sick and seek medical care ever unless you can pay for it yourself. For instance if you decide that you don't want to pay for it, then get hit by a car, I need you to pinky swear that your final words before you pass out are, "don't take me to the hospital, I don't have insurance."

Okay that was a little fair fetched, lol, and I promise I'm not trying to be bitchy, but I think people who say they have rights not to pay need to think about all the things we pay for ever day in our taxes that goes towards things we may not use ourselves, library, playgrounds, post offices, police departments ie, should people without kids have to pay taxes that go towards schools. Should people who don't drive have to pay taxes for road maintenance if they don't have cars that mess up roads? I've never had to call the fire department, but I'm happy to have them on speed dial, just in case shit happens.

 

[gremlin2k08]

Taking these things into consideration, fire department, police, 911, road maintenance, school and much more..... does help impose some depth into the subject.... while I still feel that the government should not impose a mandate for the insurance, I respect everyone for their thoughts on the matter. As was stated we youth can be short sighted at times and fail to see what may lead into the future.... I try to be prepared for what may come, but I admit I do fall short at times.... to answer the question regarding what would happen with my retirement fund if something like my back breaking happened, I have full 100% access to my account at all times so that would not be an issue..... I have been saving in it for nearly 10 years now..... And I HATE doctors and Hospitals so unless I was out cold I would defer going..... I believe if my time has come to die, then so be it.....

I am glad we can all have a thought provoking conversation with out tempers getting elevated here.... something this forum has lacked for some time.....

 

[Denny Bear]

Taking these things into consideration, fire department, police, 911, road maintenance, school and much more..... does help impose some depth into the subject.... while I still feel that the government should not impose a mandate for the insurance, I respect everyone for their thoughts on the matter. As was stated we youth can be short sighted at times and fail to see what may lead into the future.... I try to be prepared for what may come, but I admit I do fall short at times.... to answer the question regarding what would happen with my retirement fund if something like my back breaking happened, I have full 100% access to my account at all times so that would not be an issue..... I have been saving in it for nearly 10 years now..... And I HATE doctors and Hospitals so unless I was out cold I would defer going..... I believe if my time has come to die, then so be it.....

I am glad we can all have a thought provoking conversation with out tempers getting elevated here.... something this forum has lacked for some time.....

That's the spirit we'll make a good Democrat out of you yet. LOL When I was talking about what happens to your savings I was thinking about the price. An organ transplant can cost a fortune and many people end up spending there entire life savings on one major operation. Many who don't have the savings loose their homes and possessions. And again like with a heart attack happening to you while your say in a restaurant eating. You will feel a pain in your chest and then if your lucky you will wake up in the hospital and owing a ton of money. To be very honest our system does really suck and the new health care plan isn't the best but it is a bit better then what we have now and it will do a lot of people a lot of good. And hopefully as the years go by they will be able to fix what ever parts are still broke.

You are also very correct this is a good conversation and I am glad you didn't take any of my carrying on as personal. Civil people can have civil conversations without having to yell at each other.

 

[Troika]

I completely agree with the both of you. Now if we can get the rest of America to log on to Broke Straight Boys and talk amiably the world would be a better place. I think people forget that we can disagree without being disagreeable...or maybe they just don't care.

 

[gremlin2k08]

Sadly I feel it is the latter of the two.... People simply do not care.....

Denny Bear, I have no party affiliation. I tend to stay that way. If I like what a candidate is saying AND how (s)he is saying it, then that candidate has my vote. I do not wish to be in the middle of the bipartisan barrage of slander, mud, and b.s. that our country tends to boil down to. I do believe in helping others out and I completely agree that CHANGE needed to take place. We will see how the gaps/holes/loops are corrected over time with the new health care reform. Hopefully, my concerns and dislikes of the 'law' as is will have be unwarranted. Time alone will tell.

 

[Denny Bear]

Sadly I feel it is the latter of the two.... People simply do not care.....

Denny Bear, I have no party affiliation. I tend to stay that way. If I like what a candidate is saying AND how (s)he is saying it, then that candidate has my vote. I do not wish to be in the middle of the bipartisan barrage of slander, mud, and b.s. that our country tends to boil down to. I do believe in helping others out and I completely agree that CHANGE needed to take place. We will see how the gaps/holes/loops are corrected over time with the new health care reform. Hopefully, my concerns and dislikes of the 'law' as is will have be unwarranted. Time alone will tell.

You are a wise man Gremlin. Also truth be known I dont like the idea of everyone having to buy insurance either, but right now I am so desprate for change I'd eat a turd for something better then we got.

 

[balboa]

Just to chime in on this. First in my state of Ohio, if you do not own a car, you are still required to purchase car insurance of some kind if you have a drivers license. So the idea that just because you choose not to have health insurance, doesn't mean you won't have to have it at some point. Think of it this way. If you get into an auto accident or accident of any sort and you go to emergency, maybe ride in an ambulance, and receive care and you're uninsured. You don't make a lot of money...how are you gonna pay? As it is now, in cases like these, the taxpayers pay for it anyway. This is just a way to close that gap so that those in that circumstance are taken care of. It's easy to say I want the right not to have insurance when you're healthy and don't need a doctor, but as long as you're in a body, you will need a doctor at some point. And when is it humane to refuse healthcare to anyone because they can't pay? And how is that American, either? I think we're taking it a bit far to say I have the right to get sick and have someone else pay for my health expenses after I refuse to do so. Healthcare costs are high because it has to factor in all those who see doctors who can't pay for it.

 

[aquarius]

I do so agree, balboa. I think all Americans are capable of civilized conversations about things - it's just we allow ourselves to be so worked up by our political system which feeds us nonsense in order to 'gather the forces.' During the last rounds we heard so many horrible things about health care in other countries and yet those same countries outlive us and have higher live birth rates than us. I remember one article which said "if the death rate from bad medicine in Canada was so high, Canadians would already be extinct." And the French system is a marvel. I've used it. I only wish our local medical care was as efficient. We already know drug prices in Canada are much much cheaper than here. We hear its our marvelous quality control - but when was the last time you heard about a medical disaster due to bad drugs in Canada? Now, how many more ads do we need for class action suits in this country to convince you that we have a quality control problem here?
I guess I just get the feeling that neither side is being told the truth and something has to be done. I'd rather try something new than continue to fail as the same old thing. At some point our government needs to learn to stop using fear as a form of persuasion.

 

[Denny Bear]

Everyone is really bringing up really good points in this thread and it is getting more interesting. Speaking of the health care issue in other countries a young friend of mine married a foreign exchange student from Denmark. They first chose to live here until she became pregnant. After a lot of thought they decided to move back to Denmark as the birth would be much easier over there because it would all be free. The prenatal was free, the Dr was free, the hospital was free, and supposedly they even provide day care free of charge.