By Request: Discussion of the new Arizona Senate Bill Regarding Immigration Docs

[SayWhat]

This came up in another thread and I didn't see a new thread started to discuss it (as mentioned by another member).

This is an extremely controversial subject, so I'm sure I'm opening the flood gates here. As long as we respect each other, it shouldn't be a big deal, right?

That said, here's my opinion on the matter.



Does the bill ENCOURAGE racial profiling?
I don't think so.

Does it ENABLE racial profiling to a degree if the integrity of our law enforcement is questionable?
Yes.

Sad truth: MOST bills enable asshole cops to be assholes. Even existing violations like drug possession and driving under the influence probably have a higher degree of accusation toward minorities than Caucasians. And I don't know if you've ever been through a Border Patrol Check Point, but if you're in a car full of white people, they flag you through without even checking your ID.

Here's the critical parts that I think people are missing:

• 90% of the time, it's easier than you would think to distinguish an illegal immigrant from a racially-diverse American citizen.
• And even as a Caucasian, I'm asked to produce identification if there is reasonable suspicion that I'm committing a crime.
• It's been a federal crime since 1940 for immigrants to fail to carry immigration documentation. This is just a measure to enforce that regulation.

All in all, do I agree 100% with the bill? No.

BUT I do think it's a necessary step in adding some accountability to the critical issues that Arizona has been facing for some time now.

 

[tucsonjayce]

A different view

While I respect IHA's view, I differ with him on many points.

1) Is the law constitutional (US)? In a broad sense, no.

2) Does it encourage racial profiling? Probably. Does it prohibit racial profiling, yes. (Are we going to be as active looking for illegal Canadians, Slovaks or Chinese? Probably not)

3) Can officers and law enforcement departments be sued for not enforcing the law? Yes. Do we have the time and money to devote to these suits? No.

4) Is immigration the responsibility of the State. No.

5) Do we have adequate laws on the books that would make this law unnecessary? Most certainly.

6) Do we have a problem at the border like Texas does with Cuidad Juerez and the other border towns? No. Most of the fighting takes place in Phoenix. So let's devote resources to taking back Phoenix from the cartels.

7) Not everyone is Sheriff Arpaio. Sheriff Dupnik (Pima County) has said that he will not enforce the new law.

8) Jan Brewer is an idiot. In Arizona we don't have a Lt. Governor. In time of need the Secretary of State becomes Governor. If more people had realized this, she probably wouldn't have been elected. She may be our Governor, but make no mistake, she was not elected to the office she currently holds.

9) Do a lot of undocumented (illegal) aliens take jobs away from US citizens? A small percentage, yes. The majority, no. Most of them are hard working people who want to make a better life for themselves (sound familiar?) and take jobs that Americans would prefer not do (mucking horse stalls, migrant field workers, house cleaners, maids at motels/hotels,
etc.)

Let the discussion begin!

 

[Jayman01]

While I respect IHA's view, I differ with him on many points.

1) Is the law constitutional (US)? In a broad sense, no.

2) Does it encourage racial profiling? Probably. Does it prohibit racial profiling, yes. (Are we going to be as active looking for illegal Canadians, Slovaks or Chinese? Probably not)

3) Can officers and law enforcement departments be sued for not enforcing the law? Yes. Do we have the time and money to devote to these suits? No.

4) Is immigration the responsibility of the State. No.

5) Do we have adequate laws on the books that would make this law unnecessary? Most certainly.

6) Do we have a problem at the border like Texas does with Cuidad Juerez and the other border towns? No. Most of the fighting takes place in Phoenix. So let's devote resources to taking back Phoenix from the cartels.

7) Not everyone is Sheriff Arpaio. Sheriff Dupnik (Pima County) has said that he will not enforce the new law.

8) Jan Brewer is an idiot. In Arizona we don't have a Lt. Governor. In time of need the Secretary of State becomes Governor. If more people had realized this, she probably wouldn't have been elected. She may be our Governor, but make no mistake, she was not elected to the office she currently holds.

9) Do a lot of undocumented (illegal) aliens take jobs away from US citizens? A small percentage, yes. The majority, no. Most of them are hard working people who want to make a better life for themselves (sound familiar?) and take jobs that Americans would prefer not do (mucking horse stalls, migrant field workers, house cleaners, maids at motels/hotels,
etc.)

Let the discussion begin!

You go Jayce...

 

[rapper]

There is nothing wrong with the Arizona law. It was passed of course because Congress (both parties) have been hesitant to irritate potential voters by enforcing a years-old law regarding illegal aliens. And why do they hesitate? Because members of Congress want to keep their cushy own jobs while failing to protect our borders.

This whole liberal bull about "Racial Profiling" is ridiculous. The man who is suspected of trying to bomb Times Square recently has been identified, (via video tape), as being a white guy. That's part of his description. Is law enforcement setting up a potential issue of "Racial Profiling" if they only look for white suspects? I guess so . . .

In addition to other locations, Arizona is being invaded by immigrants w/o papers. Not just a few, but hundreds and hundreds.

We need to wake up and "Man-up." We go through hell trying to clear security at any airport while anyone from anywhere carrying anything can cross the border from Mexico or from Canada or onto the Florida coast and dissappear into the population. Wake Up guys! There is NO HOMELAND SECURITY as long as this situation exists. The problem is not in Arizona . . . it is in Congress.

 

[tucsonjayce]

There is nothing wrong with the Arizona law. It was passed of course because Congress (both parties) have been hesitant to irritate potential voters by enforcing a years-old law regarding illegal aliens. And why do they hesitate? Because members of Congress want to keep their cushy own jobs while failing to protect our borders.

This whole liberal bull about "Racial Profiling" is ridiculous. The man who is suspected of trying to bomb Times Square recently has been identified, (via video tape), as being a white guy. That's part of his description. Is law enforcement setting up a potential issue of "Racial Profiling" if they only look for white suspects? I guess so . . .

In addition to other locations, Arizona is being invaded by immigrants w/o papers. Not just a few, but hundreds and hundreds.

We need to wake up and "Man-up." We go through hell trying to clear security at any airport while anyone from anywhere carrying anything can cross the border from Mexico or from Canada or onto the Florida coast and dissappear into the population. Wake Up guys! There is NO HOMELAND SECURITY as long as this situation exists. The problem is not in Arizona . . . it is in Congress.

Rapper, believe it or not I agree with you in many reagrds. 1/3 of illegal aliens come thru Canada. Yes our borders are porous and someone is making a mint on tech and "the wall". It is true that law already exists and is unevenly enforced. Then there is the whole immigration system, it's BROKEN! We need to fix it.

It is interesting to note that a Cuban national who actually makes it ashore is given sanctuary, but those in the surf are not.

Many die in the desert every year trying to cross the border. Many are held for ransom by the smugglers (Coyotes). Most are not carrying drugs. Again Drug Runners (Cartels) and the Coyotes are the ones we need to "hit" and hit hard.

But let us take this to it's logical conclusion. We close the borders (all points of entry (rail, ports, airports, etc). No new illegal aliens come into the country. How much is it going to cost us to round up and deport the 10 MILLION people who are already here?

I must also acknowledge that I am a second generation American on both sides of my family. If we are not of Native American origin or ancestry, we are all immigrants. And for the most part, we took the land by force from the nations that were here before us. If might doesn't make right, then all of us are illegal aliens.

 

[mikeyank]

There is nothing wrong with the Arizona law. It was passed of course because Congress (both parties) have been hesitant to irritate potential voters by enforcing a years-old law regarding illegal aliens. And why do they hesitate? Because members of Congress want to keep their cushy own jobs while failing to protect our borders.

This whole liberal bull about "Racial Profiling" is ridiculous. The man who is suspected of trying to bomb Times Square recently has been identified, (via video tape), as being a white guy. That's part of his description. Is law enforcement setting up a potential issue of "Racial Profiling" if they only look for white suspects? I guess so . . .

In addition to other locations, Arizona is being invaded by immigrants w/o papers. Not just a few, but hundreds and hundreds.

We need to wake up and "Man-up." We go through hell trying to clear security at any airport while anyone from anywhere carrying anything can cross the border from Mexico or from Canada or onto the Florida coast and dissappear into the population. Wake Up guys! There is NO HOMELAND SECURITY as long as this situation exists. The problem is not in Arizona . . . it is in Congress.

Hey Rapper. Now that you are talking politics again, you had promised us many months ago that you were going to reveal to us what you perceived that Barack Obama's hidden agenda was. Is it time yet to reveal your theory?

 

[SayWhat]

If we are not of Native American origin or ancestry, we are all immigrants.

No disrespect intended, but I dislike this argument. I don't agree that it was right to take the country by force, but geographical politics were handled much differently 200 years ago.


We're a country that forges relationships based on trade. I don't think isolationism is the solution to our immigration issues, as it would profoundly impact our relationship with other countries around the world.


HB2162, which was passed April 30th clarifies that investigation of a person's legal status is only permitted incident to a "lawful stop, detention, or arrest". So if the person commits a crime, they would routinely be investigated. If in that investigation the officer comes to discover that the person does not have any form of government-issued identification, it's logical examine that further. It's not like the police will be standing in the middle of Food City asking for everyone's green cards.


My personal issue with the law is my fear that it will discourage illegal immigrants from seeking justice. For instance, if an illegal immigrant were to be raped by an American citizen, they could be detained and/or deported if the police got involved. Of course the American would still be prosecuted, but the fact that they cannot safely pursue legal protection is disheartening.

 

[amcovtime]

I say it is about time someone takes a stance. I applaud Arizona for starting somewhere. Is the bill perfect? No! But I think it is a step int he right direction. It will take some re working but I think this start is great. Our federal government is too afraid to tackle the issue n light of losing the valuable Hispanic vote. But if bth sides go all in then we have nothing to worry about. It is called illegal for a reason. Figure out a way to become documented or just dont come. Sorry but true. My sister in law moved here from Romania. She came on a visa and went back home and applied to become a citizen the right way. It's time America does what other countries already do. I hope I made a little bit of sense.

 

[angelone]

Would Mexico tolerate millions of United Statanos illegally crossing the borders and entering Mexico for whatever reason. Of course not. So why the discussion? Round up these law-breakers and send them home. Don't give me the talk about breaking families. We got rid of the Indians and took their land; we enslaved the blacks; we bombed the hell out of the Viet Cong; we captured and hung Saddam. So whats with 11 million illegals, round them up like we did with the Japanese Americans, put them in camps and then ship them home in cattle carts.

 

[SayWhat]

Would Mexico tolerate millions of United Statanos illegally crossing the borders and entering Mexico for whatever reason. Of course not. So why the discussion? Round up these law-breakers and send them home. Don't give me the talk about breaking families. We got rid of the Indians and took their land; we enslaved the blacks; we bombed the hell out of the Viet Cong; we captured and hung Saddam. So whats with 11 million illegals, round them up like we did with the Japanese Americans, put them in camps and then ship them home in cattle carts.

Okay that's taking it too far. There are still levels of respect people should have for one another just out of respect for human life. I don't think they should be treated to a fancy steak dinner before they're deported, but camps and cattle cars are a horribly saddening idea.

 

[mikeyank]

Round up these law-breakers and send them home. Don't give me the talk about breaking families. We got rid of the Indians and took their land; we enslaved the blacks; we bombed the hell out of the Viet Cong; we captured and hung Saddam. So whats with 11 million illegals, round them up like we did with the Japanese Americans, put them in camps and then ship them home in cattle carts.

I really hope that you are being sarcastic, but have omitted the smilies to show your "tongue in cheek". If you are serious, including one of the darkest most disturbing periods in American history when Japanese Americans were hauled off and put in internment camps.

If you are speaking your true feelings, then perhaps one of the states that has banned gay marriage should take the next step and make homosexuality illegal and round up all "fags" and put them in camps too to be hauled off somewhere too.

Did you ever hear this quotation about Adolph Hitler in Germany:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

 

[mikeyank]

Professional Sports Teams show solidarity

I read today that the NBA Phoenix Suns will show their feelings about this new law on Wednesday night:

The new Arizona immigration law has caused a lot of controversy, and many people have shown their protests in different ways. The Phoenix Suns will show their support for the Latino community during game two of the Western Conference Semi-finals, which is on Cinco de Mayo, by wearing jerseys that “rename” the team Los Suns.

Team owner Robert Sarver said the team will wear the Los Suns jerseys “to honor our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of Arizona and our nation.”

I also read recently that Major League Baseball may move the 2011 All Star Game out of Arizona, as well in protest of this seemingly unconstitutional new law in that state.

 

[SayWhat]

I read today that the NBA Phoenix Suns will show their feelings about this new law on Wednesday night:

The new Arizona immigration law has caused a lot of controversy, and many people have shown their protests in different ways. The Phoenix Suns will show their support for the Latino community during game two of the Western Conference Semi-finals, which is on Cinco de Mayo, by wearing jerseys that “rename” the team Los Suns.

Team owner Robert Sarver said the team will wear the Los Suns jerseys “to honor our Latino community and the diversity of our league, the state of Arizona and our nation.”

I also read recently that Major League Baseball may move the 2011 All Star Game out of Arizona, as well in protest of this seemingly unconstitutional new law in that state.

That's obnoxious. Most of the people in the Arizona Latino Community aren't even Mexicans. This is isn't geared toward Latinos, it's geared toward non-American Citizens. It just so happens that, due to our geography, most of our immigrants are Mexicans (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. They're literally from Mexico.)

 

[tucsonjayce]

That's obnoxious. Most of the people in the Arizona Latino Community aren't even Mexicans. This is isn't geared toward Latinos, it's geared toward non-American Citizens. It just so happens that, due to our geography, most of our immigrants are Mexicans (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way. They're literally from Mexico.)

Considering that we purchased all of Arizona below the Gila River from Mexico, that Spanish was the most spoken language in Tucson till well into the late 60's, and our proximity to the border, I find the statement that most of the latino community aren't Mexicans to be somewhat unsettling. Of course they aren't Mexican nationals, but rather American nationals of Mexican descent. And the "illegal" immigrants are not limited to those from Mexico, but also include fair numbers from Honduras, Guatamala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama. While I am of European descent, I grew up here with many, many latino friends. I speak the language, in fact I majored in Castillian at the U of A. We celebrate the diversity of our latino community in Tucson. We still have the traditional quinceaneras (girl's 15th BD), La Posada at Christmas and many other festivities that are traditional on the other side of the border. Salsa music is heard just as often as House or Dance Music. Las Brujas (midwives and healers) still make the rounds in Barrio Viejo, Barrio Hollywood and many other locales. When I was growing up, if you walked in Barrio Viejo near downtown, you would see signs in the store fronts saying "English Spoken Here" not "Se Habla Espanol".

Tucson has had the Spanish, Mexican, Confederate and United States flags fly over it. They are part of us and our history as seen in the faces of the people around us. That makes me proud.

 

[SayWhat]

Considering that we purchased all of Arizona below the Gila River from Mexico, that Spanish was the most spoken language in Tucson till well into the late 60's, and our proximity to the border, I find the statement that most of the latino community aren't Mexicans to be somewhat unsettling. Of course they aren't Mexican nationals, but rather American nationals of Mexican descent. And the "illegal" immigrants are not limited to those from Mexico, but also include fair numbers from Honduras, Guatamala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama. While I am of European descent, I grew up here with many, many latino friends. I speak the language, in fact I majored in Castillian at the U of A. We celebrate the diversity of our latino community in Tucson. We still have the traditional quinceaneras (girl's 15th BD), La Posada at Christmas and many other festivities that are traditional on the other side of the border. Salsa music is heard just as often as House or Dance Music. Las Brujas (midwives and healers) still make the rounds in Barrio Viejo, Barrio Hollywood and many other locales. When I was growing up, if you walked in Barrio Viejo near downtown, you would see signs in the store fronts saying "English Spoken Here" not "Se Habla Espanol".

Tucson has had the Spanish, Mexican, Confederate and United States flags fly over it. They are part of us and our history as seen in the faces of the people around us. That makes me proud.

I'm not saying there isn't a noticeable Latino community here. And I'm also not saying there's a problem with that.

I'm saying a majority of our modern Latino community are not Mexican nationals. I'm sorry. If you were born and raised in the United States, you're American. You may be of a Latino background, but you're not Mexican. It's not a reflection on the people of Mexico, or whatever other country. It's the proper use of the adjective "Mexican".

 

[tampa24]

I love that quote from Pastor Niemoller. The, "First they came for the communists..." It really speaks to the evil of the Nazi regime as well as all dictatorships.

 

[angelone]

I personally don't care about what nationality you are but if you are here illegally you should be deported after due process and perferrably not in cattle carts. I'll even throw in a steak dinner. I believe that there is a process as to how people should immigrate into the United States and when people bypass this process, it is not only wrong but very unfair for those of us who followed the rules and abided by the laws of this nation. If you reward these illegals with citizenship because they were here since Adam and Eve, what are telling the rest of us who believe the USA as a nation of laws and justice: Cheating is OK as long as you're from Mexico and reside here for long time. Don't reward bad behavior, reward those who follow the law.

 

[vicekid]

I thought this would be something to share with everyone.


Immigration Law Called Necessary
by Arizona State Senator Sylvia Allen – in San Francisco Chronicle, Fri, April 30, 2010

I'm an Arizona state senator. I want to explain SB1070, Arizona's immigration bill, which I voted for and which was just signed by Gov. Jan Brewer.
Rancher Rob Krentz was shot to death on his ranch over a month ago and the shooter fled into Mexico. His family suspects a drug smuggler is responsible. I participated in a state Senate hearing two weeks ago on the border violence that is, and has been, sweeping our border communities for years. From those hearings, we learned that:
-- The people who live within 60 to 80 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border have been terrorized by the Mexican drug cartels and human smugglers. One rancher testified that 300 to 1,200 people cross his ranch every day, vandalizing his property, stealing his vehicles, cutting down his fences and leaving trash. He testified that in the last two years, he has found 17 bodies and, alarmingly, several copies of the Quran.
-- Another rancher testified that drugs are brought across his ranch in a military-style operation, with guards armed to the teeth. A point man with a machine gun goes in front, a half-mile behind are the fully armed guards, a half-mile behind them are the drugs, and behind the drugs are more guards. This was not the only rancher we heard who talked about the drug trains.
-- One man told of two border crossers who came on his property, one of them shot in the back and the other in the arm by drug runners who forced them to carry drugs and then shot them. They frequently hear gunfire at night and are afraid to leave their ranch for fear of what the smugglers will do to it.
The Border Patrol is not on the border. It has set up 60 miles away with check points that do nothing to stop the invasion. The officers are not allowed to use force in stopping anyone who is entering.
The national media do not report on these stories because it conflicts with their perception of the illegal immigration issue, which is based on an assumption that all illegal immigrants are law-abiding landscapers, maids and day laborers. While this is true in many cases, it is also true that our federal and state prisons and county jails are full of a disproportionate number of illegal immigrants who are committing a disproportionate number of crimes.
The federal government has failed to do anything substantive to help border states like Arizona. We have been overrun by immigrants and, once they are here, the state has the burden of funding services that they use. With a $3.5 billion state budget deficit, we have many difficult decisions to make, and one of those decisions is that we don't have the money to care for people who are not here legally.
This has to stop. The border can be secured. We have the technology, we have the ability to stop this invasion. We must know who is coming into the country, and they must come in an organized manner - legally, so that we can assimilate them into our population and protect the sovereignty of our country.
The national media has distorted, disfigured, and dismembered Senate Bill 1070 to the point that its reputation no longer bears any resemblance to what the bill actually does. Those who claim it is racist, or will foster a Nazi-state are themselves fostering unwarranted and irrational hysteria.
The fact is that Senate Bill 1070 merely makes it a state crime to be in the United States illegally. It also explicitly prohibits law enforcement officials from solely considering race, color, or national origin in determining immigration status.
Many lawmakers who supported SB1070, including me, also support amnesty, but not until we secure the border. Failing to secure the border only moves us closer to some form of a North American Union with no borders and no national sovereignty. Many of those protesting SB1070 have called for just that.
Maybe it is too late to save America. Maybe we are not worthy of freedom anymore. But as an elected official, I must try to do what I can to protect our Constitutional Republic.
Living in America is not a right simply because you walk across the border. Being an American is a responsibility. Freedom is not free.
Sylvia Allen, a Republican from Snowflake, serves in the Arizona Senate.

Live Long and Prosper,

Vicekid

 

[dgraves13069]

I thought this would be something to share with everyone.


Immigration Law Called Necessary
by Arizona State Senator Sylvia Allen – in San Francisco Chronicle, Fri, April 30, 2010

I'm an Arizona state senator. I want to explain SB1070, Arizona's immigration bill, which I voted for and which was just signed by Gov. Jan Brewer.
Rancher Rob Krentz was shot to death on his ranch over a month ago and the shooter fled into Mexico. His family suspects a drug smuggler is responsible. I participated in a state Senate hearing two weeks ago on the border violence that is, and has been, sweeping our border communities for years. From those hearings, we learned that:
-- The people who live within 60 to 80 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border have been terrorized by the Mexican drug cartels and human smugglers. One rancher testified that 300 to 1,200 people cross his ranch every day, vandalizing his property, stealing his vehicles, cutting down his fences and leaving trash. He testified that in the last two years, he has found 17 bodies and, alarmingly, several copies of the Quran.
-- Another rancher testified that drugs are brought across his ranch in a military-style operation, with guards armed to the teeth. A point man with a machine gun goes in front, a half-mile behind are the fully armed guards, a half-mile behind them are the drugs, and behind the drugs are more guards. This was not the only rancher we heard who talked about the drug trains.
-- One man told of two border crossers who came on his property, one of them shot in the back and the other in the arm by drug runners who forced them to carry drugs and then shot them. They frequently hear gunfire at night and are afraid to leave their ranch for fear of what the smugglers will do to it.
The Border Patrol is not on the border. It has set up 60 miles away with check points that do nothing to stop the invasion. The officers are not allowed to use force in stopping anyone who is entering.
The national media do not report on these stories because it conflicts with their perception of the illegal immigration issue, which is based on an assumption that all illegal immigrants are law-abiding landscapers, maids and day laborers. While this is true in many cases, it is also true that our federal and state prisons and county jails are full of a disproportionate number of illegal immigrants who are committing a disproportionate number of crimes.
The federal government has failed to do anything substantive to help border states like Arizona. We have been overrun by immigrants and, once they are here, the state has the burden of funding services that they use. With a $3.5 billion state budget deficit, we have many difficult decisions to make, and one of those decisions is that we don't have the money to care for people who are not here legally.
This has to stop. The border can be secured. We have the technology, we have the ability to stop this invasion. We must know who is coming into the country, and they must come in an organized manner - legally, so that we can assimilate them into our population and protect the sovereignty of our country.
The national media has distorted, disfigured, and dismembered Senate Bill 1070 to the point that its reputation no longer bears any resemblance to what the bill actually does. Those who claim it is racist, or will foster a Nazi-state are themselves fostering unwarranted and irrational hysteria.
The fact is that Senate Bill 1070 merely makes it a state crime to be in the United States illegally. It also explicitly prohibits law enforcement officials from solely considering race, color, or national origin in determining immigration status.
Many lawmakers who supported SB1070, including me, also support amnesty, but not until we secure the border. Failing to secure the border only moves us closer to some form of a North American Union with no borders and no national sovereignty. Many of those protesting SB1070 have called for just that.
Maybe it is too late to save America. Maybe we are not worthy of freedom anymore. But as an elected official, I must try to do what I can to protect our Constitutional Republic.
Living in America is not a right simply because you walk across the border. Being an American is a responsibility. Freedom is not free.
Sylvia Allen, a Republican from Snowflake, serves in the Arizona Senate.

Live Long and Prosper,

Vicekid

Addemdum to Lady Liberty's tablet: "Unless you're Mexican"

I've wracked my brain trying to think of a viable middle ground. Growing up on a ranch in SW Texas, most of the people who have had an impact on my life were of Mexican descent, and a large percentage of those weren't legal....but at the same time I sympathize with the plight of the land owners close to the border because my family had some of those same issues.

My solution??? I'm jumping the fence to Canada in the middle of the night sometime....lol

On a serious note...it's a sad day when you can't emigrate to the USA to find a better life without being suspected as a murderer, drug trafficker, or terrorist.

Welcome to the future.

 

[joninliverton]

This is a fascinating but also somewhat worrying thread. I am learning a lot about the USA that I knew nothing about - the bit about the farmers and homeowners near the border being terrorised is very worrying.

As the thread is about Arizona then maybe there should be more policing on both sides of the border to combat such criminalism. On a national front, one cannot enclose ones country however big or small it is. Look at the countries who have built walls but people have still gotten through.

Someone earlier on correctly pointed out that most of the USA citizens today could be classed as "foreigners" (I wont use immigrants) and go back 200 years and imagine what the native Americans thought of the whities coming over and stealing their land. History has a habit of coming back and biting you on the butt.

The UK also has a big immigration problem but not on the scale of the USA, mainly because of it's geography and it being an island. Most of our immigration issues are down to the EU and the british government not having the backbone to say NO.