Tyra Banks Show on "Gay for Pay"

[clock12]

Orthodoxy is easier to swallow than adaptation and growth.

Look, you did it again!

So is it just a matter of convenience? Laziness? Seems too pat an answer to a "meta"-problem that complicates so many aspects of life and has dogged us since time immemorial. Nevertheless, it is axiomatic. Sticking to the script is easier.

History and tradition are how we pass the collective knowledge and wisdom of generations long dead to the present. Without these, we would likely still be living in mud huts, worshiping fire. Learning from the past is vital to progress. This is all well and good. Many traditions turned out to be simply practical advice (washing your hands before eating was a religious tradition practiced long before anyone even believed in germs.) Other traditions are just empty rituals, their original meaning forgotten or supplanted. This doesn't deter the devout, however, who are happy to go through the motions as if they were casting a spell.

The impulse to adhere to "tradition" is often nothing more than a collective abdication of our ability to fashion our own lives. Most children assume they will really understand what the hell is going on only after reaching adulthood. In this respect, adulthood is quite the letdown. Some are nonetheless willing to look about them with clear eyes and realize that, as we knew when we were children, we are all just making this up as we go along. This can be as frightening as being lost in the wilderness and realizing all your maps are obsolete (or fake). Or it can be as liberating -- providing us the freedom to draw a new map, sans glaring errors, to better approximate that fragment of the territory we can apprehend more or less objectively.

Most people, however, will cling to those ancient maps, deriving whatever meaning they can from what may as well be random scratchings. Sometimes a whole new "worldview" or "lifestyle" or "religion" will arise as new bits of data are combined with, and extrapolated from, traced-out selected portions of the old maps handed down through the millennia, drawing "complete" new ones with no more objective validity than their dubious sources. Many will even admit to this, saying that its "truth" is a distant concern compared to the benefits of the comfort to be had in its possession. These are all that stand between us and the howling chaos! Faith is a precious gift that allows some to face the dread uncertainty of this unbounded and unknowable territory without losing all heart.

Many find their comfort in ignorance. Rather than have to deal with the daunting prospect of constructing their own compass, many will fall back to: "If it was good enough for my grandpappy, it'll damned well be good enough for me!" They will proclaim their ignorance with boldness and pride, and prefer the company of others who are aren't filled with the irritating and dangerous propensity of curiosity. They will see themselves as taking the "narrow path" of virtue and righteousness. In fact "virtue," "purity," "innocence," and "narrow path" are among the positive traits associated with ignorance.

I am so glad you brought up science in this context, because it fits right in here with the rest. It is just another "meta" level of the same process: acknowledging the multitudinous flaws in logic and understanding that brought us all our superstitions and mythologies and wrong-headedness, we now have a tool to objectively observe events and draw conclusions (maps) based on that unambiguous observation instead of our florid imaginations. Wielding this tool, we have wiped away many errors and misunderstandings about the nature of the world, the universe, and even other humans (which is a more complex problem).

But it turns out that not all scientific observations are indeed unambiguous. So now you have proponents of one theory over another, each using the careful methodology of reason, logic and objectivity; each offering "proofs" to show their interpretation of the data is the correct one. Whole careers and reputations (and funding) could be at stake, so there is no want of human nature's signature trait as scientists allow their ego -- their self-identity and emotions bound up with their vested interest in seeing a particular outcome -- to abandon objectivity in their pursuit of a "win." Max Planck, the theoretical physicist who originated quantum mechanics, one of the foremost scientific minds in history, had this sobering insight: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." Oh, shit!

The scientific method was a tool devised for the very purpose of solving this problem! Thus far, it has proven inadequate to the task. As you say, it is the best tool we've got, though it is flawed and subject to every kind of mischief than mankind has ever innovated.

 

[tampa24]

Even science itself can fall victim to that thinking. There's an assumption by some that everything not proven by science is pseudoscience and therefore untrue. Science is the best tool we have for an objective reality, but simply because it hasn't been proven yet doesn't mean that one day it will. It upsets people when they hear one day that alcohol is unhealthy and a week later it has some health benefits. Orthodoxy is easier to swallow than adaptation and growth. Things are constantly changing and yesterday's "magic" is tomorrow's science.

Wow! You two are taking this in directions that leave me almost speechless. I feel like I'd better eat my Wheaties and be fully rested before responding much more. Otherwise I fear you will leave me in your dust. lol

A couple of quick points on science and the scientific method... It was invented by and practiced by flawed and imperfect human beings. While the goal is to impede, if not totally rule out, any bias on the part of the observer...it is just not possible to bring that factor down to absolute zero. Even if you get data that are 100% factual, you still have to rely on a human being to interpret them. What do the results of the experiment(s) prove beyond any doubt? If anything? That gets tricky!

The scientific method is very good. I'm just saying that it's not foolproof.

 

[tampa24]

I love reading Adam Smith, and have had my fun reading Ayn Rand, but at some point the question is begged: What makes one so certain that people will behave in their own informed self-interest?

Indeed! Adam Smith and even those hyper-educated and smug individuals at he Fed believed that the self correcting "invisible hand" would be the only tool necessary to prevent major disaster. The unshakable dogma that in a capitalist society businessmen would make sound, rational judgements on the amount of risk that they were willing to take. That they would look not only at the near term of a company's performance but also make sure that the company survived to the next decade and beyond. Once that discipline fell apart, then it became a herd mentality. The smug wizards of Wall Street saw their competition leveraging themselves to the hilt and reaping huge quarterly profits. So if "everybody's doing it", we will too. Greed, corruption, ignorance, arrogance and an overriding sense of entitlement by those at the top brought us to where we are today with the economy. That's not to say that those at the middle and bottom didn't engage in some of those very same excesses. But the ones at the very top were also the very same ones who should have known better. They proved Adam Smith wrong.

 

[tampa24]

Many find their comfort in ignorance. Rather than have to deal with the daunting prospect of constructing their own compass, many will fall back to: "If it was good enough for my grandpappy, it'll damned well be good enough for me!" They will proclaim their ignorance with boldness and pride, and prefer the company of others who are aren't filled with the irritating and dangerous propensity of curiosity. They will see themselves as taking the "narrow path" of virtue and righteousness. In fact "virtue," "purity," "innocence," and "narrow path" are among the positive traits associated with ignorance.

So true! It's so much easier to let messiahs of the airwaves and the internet tell you how to interpret the world around you. Or even just staying in a cocoon of like-minded individuals. It saves time having to read, learn and challenge yourself to continuously question core values of civilization.

 

[tampa24]

The impulse to adhere to "tradition" is often nothing more than a collective abdication of our ability to fashion our own lives. Most children assume they will really understand what the hell is going on only after reaching adulthood. In this respect, adulthood is quite the letdown. Some are nonetheless willing to look about them with clear eyes and realize that, as we knew when we were children, we are all just making this up as we go along. This can be as frightening as being lost in the wilderness and realizing all your maps are obsolete (or fake). Or it can be as liberating -- providing us the freedom to draw a new map, sans glaring errors, to better approximate that fragment of the territory we can apprehend more or less objectively.

You are so right on this Clock. I have felt that way for many years. In the sense that adulthood for me was a letdown from my expectations of how I thought grownups would act. When I was a little kid I thought that judges and lawyers were all on the same side trying to protect us (society) from the "bad" guys. Working together to defend truth, justice and honor. Then you see how the legal system really works. In spite of a few bad apples I generally still hold the police and the structure that they represent...in high regard.

Even in spite of Nixon I still felt that most politicians were looking out for the public good. Again..a few bad apples here and there. But generally politics was supposed to be filled with very educated and intelligent people who wanted to serve their country and community to the best of their abilities.

There are many professions where the expectation is that they are acting on behalf of the best interest of society or even their customers. Then through grown up eyes you see things a bit differently. It was a bit frightening to see how the world really worked.

And we live in the wealthiest country on the planet. So we are insulated from the worst deprivations and hardships that most other people on the planet have to endure on a daily basis.

Deep down I knew that the real work did not function like the Brady Bunch. But who can blame me for secretly wishing that it did?

When you have to wonder first with every commercial or piece of mail if somebody is trying to deceive you, rip you off or rob you blind...it's just very stressful and disappointing. None of us are perfect. We have all done things that we are not proud of. But I like to think that everybody is trying to do the best they can with what they have to work with.

I'm not saying that I am all down on life and that the world is an awful place. It's NOT. There are moments when we can find some real happiness here on the earthly plane. And those are the moments that we live for.

I'm just saying again that around the age of 25 when I had completed college and had gotten out into the "real" world for a while...that I found adulthood to be a letdown from my expectations. And not because I didn't have a house with a 4 car garage. But because of the way that people who were in supposedly highly respectable positions of power behaved. From the president to the bosses in the workplace.

Adulthood is over-hyped. LOL Truth in advertising and all that...

 

[clock12]

Tampa! Adulthood is overrated. So much of our time as adults is spent trying to find those fleeting tastes of pure joy and wonderment we could experience as children; free of pretense, guile, guilt, and the demands of our delicate, self-sabotaging ego. Children can argue and fight, then the next hour be playing together again. The idea of nursing a petulant grudge only comes later, as one of the multitude of adult behaviors children perceive and imitate. (We become particularly accomplished in the art of petulance, honing our dramatic flair during adolescence...)

Adults also tend to forget that when they were children, other adults thoroughly underestimated their cognitive and observational facility. Yet they do it to children themselves, without a second thought. Parents who are considering separation or divorce imagine that their young children are blissfully unaware that Daddy and Mommy can't stand each other's presence, can't feel the undercurrents of hostility and pain in their household because they have agreed to be "civil in front of the children." Yeah, that'll fool 'em.

Children are, as the old saying goes, like "sponges," singularly adept at absorbing and internalizing outside information; emotional even more than verbal. They may not be able to yet articulate what they learn daily, hourly, from adults, but learn it they do. And as they grow older, if they have not yet accumulated a strong and thorny enough outer shell, adults will cajole them using "hard lessons" in an effort to kill off that dangerously vulnerable attribute of the wide-eyed child. They will helpfully fashion them into simulacrums of themselves, complete with an adult-sized dollop of cynicism, mistrust, bitterness, and properly reorganized priorities ("You've got to look our for yourself, 'cause no one else will! Hold those fists up! Don't let anything through. You've got to learn to look out for number one! You'll thank me one day for this.")

Of course, I say all this as if I am free of it myself. Though I imagine the cynicism may be showing through. Just a bit.

 

[tampa24]

I thought I'd give this thread a bump since Grace mentioned it today on another thread. I enjoyed perusing it and looking back at so many forum members from the past. I also wanted to mention that Kurt Wilde can be seen in many scenes on College Dudes.com.

 

[tangogent]

Dear Tampa,

Thanks for reviving an interesting thread.

I did see the TB show on YT and was generally impressed with it.

I'd like to my one of my cardinal points, which is that I believe
we are all inherently bisexual since Nature does not create
discrete categories. Of course, for people towards the ends of
the spectrum, their bisexuality is merely an academic concept,

What is more important for most of us is not which gender
turns us on, but where do we love? It is much less common
for individuals to be 'biamatory'--a term I invented, pat-pat-pat--
ie, to fall in love with members of both genders. The emotional
quality of the sexual interaction tends to differ widely for actively
bisexual individuals. Think, for instance, of a lesbian who has
the hottest sex with men but builds a life with a female partner
because that's where she feels emotionally most connected.

Sites like Broke Straight Boys and the career of cute li'l Kurt Wild seem evidence
of our bisexual potential. Historically, it has been easier for women
to acknowledge for all kinds of politico-historical reasons. But now,
lucky us!, men seem to be coming to terms with it.

My turn-on at Broke Straight Boys is to see a desirable young man engaging in
"gay-fo-rpay" but simultaneously exploring and sometimes cultivating
his own bisexuality. In the archives of Broke Straight Boys there are several examples
of chaps who ultimately change their nominal sexual orientation as a result
fo the discoveries made before our very eyes, moving in identity from one
end of the spectrum to the other.

I knew someone once--oh, Martin, you were SO adorable!--who identified
himself as a "gay-identified bi butch bottom" Yes, we need more like him
in my world.

TG
x

 

[tampa24]

Here's an updated link to a video of the show: