CD - Very little bareback

[mikeyank]

I totally disagree with you Mike. How can you possibly compare the heroes of WWI and WWII and subsequent encounters such as Iraq and Afghanistan, with Aids - which in my opinion is not a plague and certainly not a punishment from God, if ever there is one.

This year marks 100 years since the start of WWI and even today I was listening to the prime minister of New Zealand praising the 100th anniversary of Anzak when they first sent ships across the vast distance to help fight the cause.

Jon, you misunderstood my point. I wasn't comparing the AIDS epidemic to the hero's who fought for their countries during the world wars. I was comparing you being born in the 1980's, and not having lived through the time when AIDS was called the "gay cancer", and President Reagan ignored the crisis for way too long as people were dying horrific deaths every day and nothing was being done. Our johnny from San Francisco was one of the "beautiful boys" during that time, and he saw literally dozens and dozens of his contemporaries, other beautiful boys get sick and wither away as the lost body functions and eventually died. johnny also lost two long term boyfriends, and he was very lucky to escape it himself.

I am comparing the first hand experiences from someone who lived through the epidemic to similar conversations that I may have had with World War I & II veterans back when I was young. Basically that a person who lived through it has a whole different perspective than someone could who was not even born yet while this was happening.

 

[joninliverton]

Jon, you misunderstood my point. I wasn't comparing the AIDS epidemic to the hero's who fought for their countries during the world wars. I was comparing you being born in the 1980's, and not having lived through the time when AIDS was called the "gay cancer", and President Reagan ignored the crisis for way too long as people were dying horrific deaths every day and nothing was being done. Our johnny from San Francisco was one of the "beautiful boys" during that time, and he saw literally dozens and dozens of his contemporaries, other beautiful boys get sick and wither away as the lost body functions and eventually died. johnny also lost two long term boyfriends, and he was very lucky to escape it himself.

I am comparing the first hand experiences from someone who lived through the epidemic to similar conversations that I may have had with World War I & II veterans back when I was young. Basically that a person who lived through it has a whole different perspective than someone could who was not even born yet while this was happening.

Just because I was born in the 1980s doesn't mean I am ignorant of history. You may well have noticed that we have computers these days and via computers there sites with video archives of historical footage of such events, in addition to well written books. Regarding Reagan ignoring the so called crisis - I cannot see what he could have done to prevent such deaths. If people decide they want to sleep with all and sundry then they run the risk of catching any disease their partners may have, from a simple cold to full blown Aids - if they don't take preventative measures. I am naturally sorry for Johnny losing his friends to Aids, but I also have an older gay friend who lost 4 of his best friends to Aids in London during the same period. When I asked him why, he said it was a mixture of gays first being accepted out in public bars; gay clubs and bars opening without fear and prejudice of being raided by police: This freedom led to "everyone fucking everyone", so it was a bit like kiddies getting free sweets from a shop. Unfortunately and unbeknown to most, the time coincided with the rising cases of Aids.

Today's world has a similar situation in Africa with the Ebola crisis. I would certainly be happier using the world plague with Ebola than the Aids situation.

 

[louis33705]

I am not going to get into any further discussion on this thread other than what I already posted with my experiences on this subject. However, I do want to share something that is very eye-opening. It is the movie "Longtime Companion" which included may well known actors. I highly recommend anyone who has not seen it to see it. Below I am posting the trailer to the movie as well as the link to see it in its entirely on Youtube (not the best quality but still very moving).

This is the link to the entire movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8yQJlAbFwA

 

[mikeyank]

..................................................Regarding Reagan ignoring the so called crisis - I cannot see what he could have done to prevent such deaths. If people decide they want to sleep with all and sundry then they run the risk of catching any disease their partners may have, from a simple cold to full blown Aids - if they don't take preventative measures.

If you are interested Jon, there are a ton of articles available explaining how Reagan's refusal to even acknowledge that AIDS existed cost years and countless deaths as there was no government funding for research.

Here is a snippet from one article I found from a website called SFGATE:

Reagan's AIDS Legacy / Silence equals death
Allen White Published 4:00 am, Tuesday, June 8, 2004

"As America remembers the life of Ronald Reagan, it must never forget his shameful abdication of leadership in the fight against AIDS. History may ultimately judge his presidency by the thousands who have and will die of AIDS.

Following discovery of the first cases in 1981, it soon became clear a national health crisis was developing. But President Reagan's response was "halting and ineffective," according to his biographer Lou Cannon. Those infected initially with this mysterious disease -- all gay men -- found themselves targeted with an unprecedented level of mean-spirited hostility.

A significant source of Reagan's support came from the newly identified religious right and the Moral Majority, a political-action group founded by the Rev. Jerry Falwell. AIDS became the tool, and gay men the target, for the politics of fear, hate and discrimination. Falwell said "AIDS is the wrath of God upon homosexuals." Reagan's communications director Pat Buchanan argued that AIDS is "nature's revenge on gay men."

With each passing month, death and suffering increased at a frightening rate. Scientists, researchers and health care professionals at every level expressed the need for funding. The response of the Reagan administration was indifference."

 

[louis33705]

Mike, I posted the above link to the movie which depicts exactly as to how the news of the crises hit the city of New York and the country.

I ask Jon to please watch this movie and see it as we saw it in our time. It is a movie, but a very explicit depiction of what we personally witnessed.

 

[johnny]

Mike, I posted the above link to the movie which depicts exactly as to how the news of the crises hit the city of New York and the country.

I ask Jon to please watch this movie and see it as we saw it in our time. It is a movie, but a very explicit depiction of what we personally witnessed.

Thank You Louis..Like You ..I lived it. So ..I really don't think anyone could fully understand what it was like.
Unless you saw it first hand.
And I guess that is as it should be. We who lived and survived it. Will never forget..xo johnny
Thanks for the movie I missed it.

 

[joninliverton]

Listen guys, yes I agree it must have been bad, but it was not a plague. For once please be less spiteful and think of the thousands of people who have died in genuine plagues like the current ebola and other non sexually transmitted illnesses.

 

[joninliverton]

Mike, I posted the above link to the movie which depicts exactly as to how the news of the crises hit the city of New York and the country.

I ask Jon to please watch this movie and see it as we saw it in our time. It is a movie, but a very explicit depiction of what we personally witnessed.

Why would I watch a movie with actors that are only relaying what the script writers have put in front of them. There are genuine clips out there of what really happened all over the world, so I don't want to watch a 3rd party story.

 

[Stripe222]

Listen guys, yes I agree it must have been bad, but it was not a plague. For once please be less spiteful and think of the thousands of people who have died in genuine plagues like the current ebola and other non sexually transmitted illnesses.

I lived in the West Village, the epicenter of AIDS in NYC during the epidemic. I lost friends and saw many of the sick and dying. I watched the US government virtually ignore the epidemic. You say "Regarding Reagan ignoring the "so called crisis", He couldn't have done anything". The leader of the free world has thousands of citizens dying terrible deaths from a little understood disease and he never mentions it publicly? He couldn't do anything? How about money for research and immediate action to mobilize all the tools at the governments command to help the dying and find drugs to save the infected?

ACT UP is the reason the government was finally shamed into action. Nobody in the Reagan Administration cared about faggots dying because it didn't play well with the rednecks in Tulsa. I was in ACT UP and participated in many actions, including the big one at the NIH in Washington. I was radicalized and learned the mindset and lexicon of the gay community I was a part of and the huge cost of oppression and marginalization. I witnessed brilliant people in the movement do incredible work to care for the sick, initiate policy, fight Mayor Koch and create GMHC, God's Love We Deliver and many other organizations at the grass roots level. I listened to Larry Kramer rail against the government and sometimes at ACT UP, which he helped create, because enough wasn't being done. I watched many of those brilliant people die, to be replaced by others who kept fighting to find treatments and the ever elusive cure. I saw drugs finally fast tracked because ACT UP and the Treatment Action Group (an affinity group within ACT UP) successfully pressure the NIH and the government to do so. It was gay men and many lesbians who changed the course of the epidemic and helped save thousands of lives. Through shear force of will and dedication they moved the mountain of government inaction and neglect.

I won't go on to explain it any further. You'll never get it.

You're often playfully rude, but in this case you're insulting. Basically, you don't have a @#$% clue about what really happened and what it was like to be there. You're flip and dismissive of one of the greatest epidemics in the 20th century.

In short, you don't know what you're talking about and I doubt you ever will. The first rule of holes is that when you find yourself in one, quit digging. I suggest you do so.

 

[mikeyank]

Thank you Stripe, number one for all you did to help your fellow man during that horrible period in our country and in my city, and yes Mayor Koch, who I admired in many ways was shameful in ignoring the crisis and turning his back on his fellow gay men who were suffering and dying horrible deaths. Much like Nero, Mayor Koch “fiddled while Rome burned.”

And thank you as well for expressing much more eloquently than I ever could how insulting and dismissive some of the comments have been on this thread, regarding the tragedy that so many of us lived through not all that long ago.

 

[johnny]

Thank You Stripe.I could go on and on of my own personal horror. I was one of the lucky ones that made it through.
I still sometimes wonder how lucky I really was? Because of the emptiness and loss I still feel. 30 years later.
But no. I was glad I was there to do the small part I did. It was a plague...changed my life forever.
Just thank You. Life keeps going on. But those of us that were there will never forget. Again Thanks...johnny

 

[joninliverton]

And thank you as well for expressing much more eloquently than I ever could how insulting and dismissive some of the comments have been on this thread, regarding the tragedy that so many of us lived through not all that long ago.

FFS Mike stop crying in your soup. One would have thought that AIDS was occurring only in America during the 80s.. I am not insulting at all I'm just saying that it is and not a plague, especially when you compare it to Ebola and the likes of. I wasnt around in the 80s but I do know that the UK government did have lots of adverts on TV and in all the bus shelters, advert boards etc, stating the dangers of unprotected sex. The failure of your government to do the same is not my fault or the UKs. America has taken a lot longer to accept homosexuality than Europe and other "civilised" countries and just because of this there is no need to sound off to non Americans about being unsympathetic.

Regarding what Reagan could have done, well that is now in the past however, there is still no cure for Aids (although there have been massive advances). so I'm not sure suddenly throwing millions of dollars into research would have made a difference to those who were suffering at the time. What should have been done was to highlight awareness and the need to promote safe sex - which obviously wasn't by your quotes.

And Stripe, think what you like about me, if you cannot see both sides of a discussion then why discuss.

 

[louis33705]

Although this thread originally was about the lack of BB on College Dudes, I have spent much time reading on both Aids and Ebola. I found it interesting that Aids was first talked about in 1959. Ebola diagnoses (plural for diagnosis) go back to 1976. Much attention has been focused on the origination of these diseases coming from Africa; however, there is evidence that these existed in other countries, primarily those with primate inhabitants such as monkeys, chimpanzees, etc.

Just some tidbit to share.

Knowing we have gone off topic (as we normally do), these are matters that continually need to be discussed for not only our own education but others' as well.

While we have been discussing Aids primarily, I would like to interject that my family has also been affected by the Ebola virus. My son's sister-in-law graduated from high school in the late 90's. As a graduation present her mother took her on a tour of Italy and Africa. While in Africa she got extremely ill so her mother cut their trip short and returned to the US. She died within two weeks after returning at the Children's Hospital in St. Petersburg, FL. Autopsy results showed that she had died from complications due to the Ebola virus.

Sometimes I feel I have been "around the block" far too many times than I wish to remember.

Stay safe and stay well, Folks.

Louis

 

[Ambivalent]

I am not going to get into any further discussion on this thread other than what I already posted with my experiences on this subject. However, I do want to share something that is very eye-opening. It is the movie "Longtime Companion" which included may well known actors. I highly recommend anyone who has not seen it to see it. Below I am posting the trailer to the movie as well as the link to see it in its entirely on Youtube (not the best quality but still very moving).

This is the link to the entire movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8yQJlAbFwA

**************************

I loved this movie, Louis. It was highly reviewed, and sensitively performed. (Of course, I also have a huge crush on Campbell Scott.) Jon, I think the value of artistic explorations of issues like this, as they delve more deeply into the emotional and psychological dimensions of a particular human experience.

"A" XOXOXOXOXO

 

[Ambivalent]

Hey, everyone -

I appreciate what I think Jon was getting at. As I read him (though I am subject to correction) he's urging us not to get too self-indulgent about a particular disease, or the experience of coping with it, just because it might affect us (or people whom we particularly love): while others, in further corners of the globe, die en masse, with very little caring from the rest of the world. (Think Ebola, think malaria, think cholera. . . and so on.) Often we Westerners are kind of myopic, about these things.

Still, contra Jon, I DO think it is right to characterize HIV and AIDS, as a "plague". I don't think there is a specific numeric threshold for such definition, but, two years ago, the World Health Organization reported that, since the beginning of the HIV/AIDS epidemic, 36 million people had died of HIV; and (as of 2012) 35.3 million people were living WITH HIV or AIDS. Of course, the great preponderance of sufferers are from the developing world, where the good treatments that are helping Westerners living with HIV and AIDS, are not as readily available, or available, at all :-(

I would also wish to nuance the common perception of HIV and AIDS in the West in the early years of the epidemic (as being a disease with moral fault attached to it) this way:

1.) Diseases which issue from sexual contact have long been subject to stigma, as evidence of moral dissolution. (This is one of the themes of Henrik Ibsen's great play, Ghosts, which was about syphilis. (A disease which is again on the rise, because a lot of people have grown complacent about its treatability - something which is happening also, with young people - and lots of older people - with regard to HIV.)

2.) As a personal matter (and being a pretty buttoned-down sort of chap): I might not have agreed with some of the lifestyles which characterized segments of the gay community in the '70's and '80's, which undoubtedly contributed to the spread of the disease.

However:

i) Not everyone who contracted the disease, then, or contracts it to this very day (as some like to suggest): was (or is) a crazed sexual lothario. Lots of perfectly nice, modest, blameless people succumbed, and continue to succumb, for a variety of reasons - a partner's non-disclosure; a partner's lack of knowledge about his status; condom failure, and other reasons. It doesn't take a reprobate's lifestyle - all it takes is one wrong or uninformed or overly trusting decision - or one PURE, BLAMELESS, ACCIDENT.

ii) When it comes to the annals of human infirmity, with the exception of a few odd masochists, nobody sets out to get a disease. (Though admittedly, some of us are a little more careless with our health, than others - as cute Vladimir from the McDonald's in Tallinn's Old Town could tell you, of my gustatory exploits - and usually so, in the pursuit of pleasure. Pleasures which we all feel, and require.) Sex is a bit of a vortex for health accidents, because it is, notoriously, the greatest and most comforting of all human physical pleasures, and because its intimate contact affords many avenues for the spread of all sorts of maladies. From libertines to Amish elders, no one is REALLY TOTALLY proof against all these storms (though the Amish elders are admittedly, usually, a bit closer to the safer side of the spectrum) - but most of us are somewhere in the MIDDLE. (Only celibacy keeps one TRULY safe from ALL sexually-spread maladies, as the Centres for Disease Control will tell you: but very few humans are truly, constitutional celibates.)

iii) At any rate, viruses and bacteria and their ilk are no respecters of PERSONS. They proceed upon their merry way, feeding upon us whenever, and however, they can - wherever, and whenever, they find an opening, no matter how chance it might be. The task of medicine (and the public health policy which promotes medicine) is not (I think) to act as one enthroned at the Right Hand of God, passing judgement upon all our sins, but rather, to heal us when it CAN. Because, everyone who is sick, deserves the best we can give him or her in the way of medical expertise, to heal him, and give him a second chance, or extend his life and health a little - to make the most of it. This is, I think, the way a humanist of any sort (religious, agnostic, or atheist) would view the matter.

************************************************** ***

In sum:

*I do agree with Jon that we Westerners (and gay Westerners, too) should not fixate solely on problems which we perceive as being specifically ours. We ought to take a wider view, and care just as much for those who are afflicted by debilitating conditions which we seldom, or rarely, encounter.

*I am not much, though, for "ranking" plagues, or making fine definitions about what is the greatest ill from which humanity suffers. There are PLENTY of plagues, plaguing us, now. . . there is plenty of tragedy to go around. (And always, and forevermore. And it all MATTERS.) Though we are finite, I think it is not beyond us to feel real compassion for (and to try and help) ANYONE who is suffering. This is, I think, the very definition of what it means to be a good human being.

*I understand, too, that for many of the people on this board, the problem of HIV and AIDS is particularly personal, because we have lost friends or loved-ones, to it. Just as people who lose friends and loved-ones to cancer, or heart disease, will feel a particular concern and compassion for those who suffer from those diseases.

Life is short, and fragile. And when it comes to matters of disease (of any kind), and its causes, and its treatment: I think we are better off trying to help and support those who suffer; and encourage prevention where and when we can; than to spend very much time at all in assigning fault, or debating which of the many ills we face, is worst.

"A" XOXOXOXOXOXOXO

 

[tampa24]

I lived in the West Village, the epicenter of AIDS in NYC during the epidemic. I lost friends and saw many of the sick and dying. I watched the US government virtually ignore the epidemic. You say "Regarding Reagan ignoring the "so called crisis", He couldn't have done anything". The leader of the free world has thousands of citizens dying terrible deaths from a little understood disease and he never mentions it publicly? He couldn't do anything? How about money for research and immediate action to mobilize all the tools at the governments command to help the dying and find drugs to save the infected?

ACT UP is the reason the government was finally shamed into action. Nobody in the Reagan Administration cared about faggots dying because it didn't play well with the rednecks in Tulsa. I was in ACT UP and participated in many actions, including the big one at the NIH in Washington. I was radicalized and learned the mindset and lexicon of the gay community I was a part of and the huge cost of oppression and marginalization. I witnessed brilliant people in the movement do incredible work to care for the sick, initiate policy, fight Mayor Koch and create GMHC, God's Love We Deliver and many other organizations at the grass roots level. I listened to Larry Kramer rail against the government and sometimes at ACT UP, which he helped create, because enough wasn't being done. I watched many of those brilliant people die, to be replaced by others who kept fighting to find treatments and the ever elusive cure. I saw drugs finally fast tracked because ACT UP and the Treatment Action Group (an affinity group within ACT UP) successfully pressure the NIH and the government to do so. It was gay men and many lesbians who changed the course of the epidemic and helped save thousands of lives. Through shear force of will and dedication they moved the mountain of government inaction and neglect.

Thank you for that firsthand account Stripe. And thank you so much for your service to our community nationwide. Our brothers and sisters in the global population have benefitted from all the drugs that were finally fast-tracked for human testing. Thank you for the reality check of what is was like to live back then. When nobody in the establishment or the public arena wanted to even acknowledge that gays were anything more than a miniscule and morally depraved segment of the population. Deserving of scorn, isolation and anything else a wrathful God was apparently eager to send their way. Perhaps some pity could be allowed for the horrible and painful fashion in which the victims of this "gay disease" would succumb. But little more than pity, mixed with a small dose of moral superiority and holier than thou condescension. Not any real nationally coordinated action on the part of government, the media or the healthcare community to protect and educate all citizens.

I give some credit to C. Everett Koop, Reagan's Surgeon General. He was one of the first who broke ranks with virulently homophobic Republicans and actually started talking about the disease publicly. He was a pioneer in that sense...a professional physician who spoke of the disease in professional, medical and non-judgmental terms.

There is the one other intangible but also devastating consequence for those of us who lived through the worst of the 80's and 90's and made it out alive and physically healthy. (Besides the burden of attending or hearing of all the funerals of course.) That is the heavy emotional, spiritual and deeply personal toll of a self-imposed and unwanted celibacy. The constant wrestling with the fear and conflict of what boundaries "safe sex" meant. When men in particular are in their late teens, early 20's to early 30's and the testosterone is raging, they're at the peak of their youthful beauty in that season of life, and then you tell them that sex and physical intimacy is something that is dangerous and very possibly fatal...the inner conflict can be devastating. Plus you've still got the daily pressures of being a minority in a very homophobic society. The setup that puts them in biologically, socially psychologically and spiritually can feel like it tears at their very soul.

Many of us either did without completely or settled for a fake or constrained sexual intimacy that was far less than either partner wanted or felt they each needed at the time. I found myself unwittingly sabotaging potential relationships with wonderful guys out of fear that I would be asked to do things sexually that I very very much wanted to do...but was terrified to try. To this day I still carry some of the emotional scars and regrets of self-deprived intimacy and hopeful possibly long-term relationships never entered into.

I feel I'm rather a product of my time in that sense because I really came of age in the early to mid eighties.