Did anyone else see the breaking news about ANOTHER GUNMAN?! This time this one killed 4 marines in Tennessee military bases!
What's is America coming to?
What's is America coming to?
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Absolutely disgusted!
- Thread starter BSBDrakeTyler
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its so sad like i have said before we take a step in the right direction and then we take 2 steps back... its scary to imagine what what will be going on 10 years from now!
joeychuck2
BSB Addict
Unless our values change more of this might happen again and again. Boarders aren't just Mexico They come by plane more often. Our beautiful rights that we all love and think they are written in stone will have to change. The longer we wait to "suspend" some of the constitution to protect us, the more people will die and get hurt. I know people will be upset over it or me even suggesting it. I my self can't believe I could say it,but it has to be done even for a short time.
The whole story of the murders just sickens me. I feel so bad for the families of all those killed. My heart goes out to them. This is probably one of those "lone wolf" attacks that ISIS propaganda is encouraging worldwide.
But Joey. History shows that once a population gives up rights in a free society, they are invariably very difficult and time consuming to ever get them back. IF they ever do. This conversation also reminds of one George W.'s most absurd and useless propaganda soundbites. That being, "We're gonna win the war on terrorism!" Excuse me? When are we ever going to have this fictitious grand and "Final" battle where we defeat terrorism so decisively that nobody in the world will ever set off a bomb or murder innocent civilians (or members of militaries) in non war zone areas?
You speak of giving up liberties and rights for a short time. But once done, there would always be justifications of a terrorist threat (or just the usual threat from a hostile foreign government) from somewhere on the planet to keep those restrictions in place indefinitely. We need look only as far as the debates over the NSA and the "Patriot Act" to see how entrenched the restrictions on our freedoms of expression, and the constitutional right protecting us from unlawful search or seizure without just cause, can quickly become.
Our government says behind closed doors that the NSA should be legally allowed to monitor all of our phone calls and all of our supposedly private internet activities, in the interest of national defense. Using the no choice but to look for the needle in the haystack analogy. But for how long? Until we win the War on Terror? And then they will gleefully and quickly roll everything back to pre-9/11 levels? The real answer they don't want to admit to the public is that they will want to keep all these restrictions on our liberties in place forever. Because national defense (even in peacetime) is a 24/7 job. It doesn't take weekends off. And there are always threats out there to justify a strong national defense. The interesting catch is what a "strong" national defense looks like to policy makers. It will interesting to see where the debates over the Patriot Act and the NSA go.
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louis33705
BSB Addict
Many years ago People feared the concept of a "Big Brother" society. Well, we are here now. There are dromes, cameras in just about every street corner, stores, people's homes surveying and watching. Yet, the killings continue. You ask what it is the mind of these murderers, but only they themselves know. Cameras did not stop a young man from killing nine people in a church in South Carolina recently. He infiltrated into a sacred environment and was welcomed. His personal gratification was to kill, kill, kill......! Why? Why did a young man go into a theatre and kill a bunch of people. Why did two brothers cause such damage to life in the bombings in Boston? Why were so many lives sacrificed at the Twin Towers in 2001? We do not have that answer. Only the perpetrators do.
Drake, you are a young man (along with John Henry who also responded to this threat) who has not had the life experiences that many of the older members of this forum have had. This is not new to us old folks. We have experienced tragedies throughout our lives. As an example, my family was very good friends with an Italian family in Tampa. That family owned a family grocery store. However, they were in competition with a Mafia owned grocery store down the road. One day as they arrived home, the husband and wife were gunned down in their driveway in front of their three kids. My parents took the three kids in until family members could come down from New York to take them back home with them.
My point here is that our history is not void of crime and senseless murder. The perpetrators of yesterday are no different than the ones today. The scenarios may be different but the evil that drives them to these acts is the same.
I understand how you are feeling. However, you must still keep an open and positive mind and live your life to the fullest. Love and let yourself be loved. It is the greatest gift of all.
Thank you for posting this, Drake.
Peace,
Louis
Drake, you are a young man (along with John Henry who also responded to this threat) who has not had the life experiences that many of the older members of this forum have had. This is not new to us old folks. We have experienced tragedies throughout our lives. As an example, my family was very good friends with an Italian family in Tampa. That family owned a family grocery store. However, they were in competition with a Mafia owned grocery store down the road. One day as they arrived home, the husband and wife were gunned down in their driveway in front of their three kids. My parents took the three kids in until family members could come down from New York to take them back home with them.
My point here is that our history is not void of crime and senseless murder. The perpetrators of yesterday are no different than the ones today. The scenarios may be different but the evil that drives them to these acts is the same.
I understand how you are feeling. However, you must still keep an open and positive mind and live your life to the fullest. Love and let yourself be loved. It is the greatest gift of all.
Thank you for posting this, Drake.
Peace,
Louis
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You're so right Louis that we must not let fear dictate how we live our lives.
We can't prosper and reach our fullest potentials if we give into the paranoia of all the dangers we might face in the world. It's not a Pollyanna rose colored glasses ignorance to pursue our hopes and dreams for the future without constantly looking over our shoulders or fretting. If we allow constant fear of what-if scenarios to become our reality, then the terrorists have succeeded in their goal. We can expect our government to take all reasonable precautions to protect us that are legal within the laws of our land and in accordance with the democratic principles of our free and open society. We can take reasonable common sense precautions when we are out and about in society. We will mourn any victims whether they are killed or injured by citizens of our own country, or by foreigners. We will seek justice through our legal system.
In the meantime we will do our best to live our lives well, love those closest to us, and enjoy the pursuit of happiness.
Ambivalent
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Hi, guys ~
This comes from a Canadian perspective: so you are welcome to "take it or leave it", just as you will.
With respect to the question of national security, and the surveillance of potential terrorists, I find myself mid-way between Joey, and Tampa. And I see Louis as being a little fatalistic, on this subject. (In full disclosure, I am an admitted "national security conservative.")
I have no quarrel with agencies like the NSA and FBI (or in Canada, the RCMP and CSIS) keeping close watch on those who seem to be fomenting terrorism, in our countries. I agree with Tampa, that the Constitution of the United States - though, let us recall, it was written in the 18th century, and could never have envisioned perils such as the ones we face, now - is a fundamentally sound document, in its inclinations and prescriptions.
I am not part of the Edward Snowden fan-club. I do not think that keeping close watch on those who foment civil discord on social media, is fundamentally at odds with the principles of the U.S Constitution - or the Canadian constitution, either. If someone comes online promoting carnage and death, I have no problem with security agencies following the activities of such persons online or elsewhere, subject to appropriate judicial oversight. Indeed, I would prefer that they do so, as opposed to the suggestion that "all immigration from foreign lands be ended", or some such Donald Trumpian solution. (How to best handle immigration is another, though related question, but cutting it off altogether cuts off the life and growth of a country altogether - having responsible and alert security agencies is a better solution, than turning away responsible and decent immigrants.)
However, and I will hold the full force of my comments in this regard, until further details with respect to the investigation are complete - I think a larger question is being missed, here. It appears that the assailant, in this instance, murdered his victims with an AK-47 assault rifle, in a state (Tennessee) which does not require background checks on those who wish to purchase such weapons. Gentlemen, from a Canadian perspective, this is simply. . . crazy.
Look, as Louis rightly points out - some gun fatalities in a country which allows people the use of guns, will always happen. I am from the farm in northern Canada; my nephew is an avid hunter (who owns a shop which sells, amongst other hunting equipment, guns); and I completely understand that there are legitimate reasons why people ought to be able to own rifles and shotguns, for hunting, pest control on farms, and so on. I would never deny people's right to own guns, for such reasons.
However, I will submit two propositions, to you, for your consideration:
1.) In a civilized society, NO ONE who is not working in a specifically military capacity, needs to own an AK-47. This is a weapon which is not designed for hunting; it is designed to kill a lot of people, in close combat, as quickly as possible. The U.S. badly needs to renew its ban on assault weapons of this kind. (Albeit that such a renewal would be only partly helpful, because there are so many of them presently in circulation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban)
The TRULY necessary and effective thing for the United States to do, would be to do as Australia did, and (in addition to banning the sale of NEW assault weapons) institute a federally-mandated buyback program, to get EXISTING assault weapons off the market. It was an incredibly effective program, and here is what the RIGHT-WING former Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard, had to say about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/opinion/australia-banned-assault-weapons-america-can-too.html?_r=0
2.) EVERY state in the Union, ought to have strict and mandatory background checks, for anyone who wishes to purchase a gun of ANY sort. And be licensed to hold a firearm, too. Is that so unreasonable? Yes, people constitutionally have a right to bear arms - no question. But people also have a right to DRIVE, and before you can drive (in ANY state in the Union): you must pass a driver's test, and be licensed, to keep on driving your car. This is not an unreasonable requirement, I think - especially since deaths resulting from firearms are projected to surpass deaths caused by traffic accidents. . . this year, in 2015. http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/americas-top-killing-machine/384440/
****************************************************************
Of course, because of the deep pockets and the incredible propaganda issued by the National Rifle Association (which long ago ceased to be representative of responsible sportsmen and gun owners, and now finds its fastest-growing source of income comes from lobbying for gun MANUFACTURERS ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2012/07/23/the-nra-industrial-complex/ ) change will be very SLOW, in America.
But, Drake, and John Henry. . . if you really want to do something about these sorts of incidents: write to your Congressman, and your Senator, and DEMAND that they re-institute the 1994 assault rifles ban; and DEMAND that background checks be instituted in EVERY STATE.
Because, until enough Americans get this idea, and resolve to DO something about it - - - these sorts of incidents will happen, again, and again, and again. Whenever ANY sort of crazy person, with any sort of crazy grievance, decides to order an AK-47 online, or decides to pick one up, at a local gun-show.
Hugs,
"A" XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO
http://www.ibtimes.com/chattanooga-...ate-after-mohammad-youssef-abdulazeez-2013917
This comes from a Canadian perspective: so you are welcome to "take it or leave it", just as you will.
With respect to the question of national security, and the surveillance of potential terrorists, I find myself mid-way between Joey, and Tampa. And I see Louis as being a little fatalistic, on this subject. (In full disclosure, I am an admitted "national security conservative.")
I have no quarrel with agencies like the NSA and FBI (or in Canada, the RCMP and CSIS) keeping close watch on those who seem to be fomenting terrorism, in our countries. I agree with Tampa, that the Constitution of the United States - though, let us recall, it was written in the 18th century, and could never have envisioned perils such as the ones we face, now - is a fundamentally sound document, in its inclinations and prescriptions.
I am not part of the Edward Snowden fan-club. I do not think that keeping close watch on those who foment civil discord on social media, is fundamentally at odds with the principles of the U.S Constitution - or the Canadian constitution, either. If someone comes online promoting carnage and death, I have no problem with security agencies following the activities of such persons online or elsewhere, subject to appropriate judicial oversight. Indeed, I would prefer that they do so, as opposed to the suggestion that "all immigration from foreign lands be ended", or some such Donald Trumpian solution. (How to best handle immigration is another, though related question, but cutting it off altogether cuts off the life and growth of a country altogether - having responsible and alert security agencies is a better solution, than turning away responsible and decent immigrants.)
However, and I will hold the full force of my comments in this regard, until further details with respect to the investigation are complete - I think a larger question is being missed, here. It appears that the assailant, in this instance, murdered his victims with an AK-47 assault rifle, in a state (Tennessee) which does not require background checks on those who wish to purchase such weapons. Gentlemen, from a Canadian perspective, this is simply. . . crazy.
Look, as Louis rightly points out - some gun fatalities in a country which allows people the use of guns, will always happen. I am from the farm in northern Canada; my nephew is an avid hunter (who owns a shop which sells, amongst other hunting equipment, guns); and I completely understand that there are legitimate reasons why people ought to be able to own rifles and shotguns, for hunting, pest control on farms, and so on. I would never deny people's right to own guns, for such reasons.
However, I will submit two propositions, to you, for your consideration:
1.) In a civilized society, NO ONE who is not working in a specifically military capacity, needs to own an AK-47. This is a weapon which is not designed for hunting; it is designed to kill a lot of people, in close combat, as quickly as possible. The U.S. badly needs to renew its ban on assault weapons of this kind. (Albeit that such a renewal would be only partly helpful, because there are so many of them presently in circulation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban)
The TRULY necessary and effective thing for the United States to do, would be to do as Australia did, and (in addition to banning the sale of NEW assault weapons) institute a federally-mandated buyback program, to get EXISTING assault weapons off the market. It was an incredibly effective program, and here is what the RIGHT-WING former Prime Minister of Australia, John Howard, had to say about it: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/opinion/australia-banned-assault-weapons-america-can-too.html?_r=0
2.) EVERY state in the Union, ought to have strict and mandatory background checks, for anyone who wishes to purchase a gun of ANY sort. And be licensed to hold a firearm, too. Is that so unreasonable? Yes, people constitutionally have a right to bear arms - no question. But people also have a right to DRIVE, and before you can drive (in ANY state in the Union): you must pass a driver's test, and be licensed, to keep on driving your car. This is not an unreasonable requirement, I think - especially since deaths resulting from firearms are projected to surpass deaths caused by traffic accidents. . . this year, in 2015. http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/americas-top-killing-machine/384440/
****************************************************************
Of course, because of the deep pockets and the incredible propaganda issued by the National Rifle Association (which long ago ceased to be representative of responsible sportsmen and gun owners, and now finds its fastest-growing source of income comes from lobbying for gun MANUFACTURERS ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2012/07/23/the-nra-industrial-complex/ ) change will be very SLOW, in America.
But, Drake, and John Henry. . . if you really want to do something about these sorts of incidents: write to your Congressman, and your Senator, and DEMAND that they re-institute the 1994 assault rifles ban; and DEMAND that background checks be instituted in EVERY STATE.
Because, until enough Americans get this idea, and resolve to DO something about it - - - these sorts of incidents will happen, again, and again, and again. Whenever ANY sort of crazy person, with any sort of crazy grievance, decides to order an AK-47 online, or decides to pick one up, at a local gun-show.
Hugs,
"A" XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO
http://www.ibtimes.com/chattanooga-...ate-after-mohammad-youssef-abdulazeez-2013917
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joeychuck2
BSB Addict
Giving up freedom is a VERY VERY VERY DRASTIC STEP! I consider myself a moderate but some issues I'm way on the left others on the right. I dread even the idea of giving up any freedom. BUT... The world where we have Islamic Extremists intermingled among us who want to convert us or destroy us (our choice) is the world we NOW live in. Talk of losing freedom try Sharia Law. That is their goal for us. We have little choice and it's going to get worse every day we do nothing.
how would giving up my rights make me safer?
people who might wish to cause me harm come in many forms. a young man prays with and kills people in a church. a cop shot a man in the back. a young man armed with an assault rifle kills four marines and would have kill many others.
neither young killers were on any watch list.
even if I would consider the merits of giving up my rights, I could not. my rights are inalienable.
home grown haters and terrorist won't be stopped by giving the government more power.
people who might wish to cause me harm come in many forms. a young man prays with and kills people in a church. a cop shot a man in the back. a young man armed with an assault rifle kills four marines and would have kill many others.
neither young killers were on any watch list.
even if I would consider the merits of giving up my rights, I could not. my rights are inalienable.
home grown haters and terrorist won't be stopped by giving the government more power.
joeychuck2
BSB Addict
If we go on and keep everyone's rights and those who would harm us keep killing "some of us", if we keep saying we feel sorry over and over and don't protect ourselves, THEN history will say we WERE an honorable country too bad they were taken over and changed into a different country. It's time to wake up and see what they are doing all around the world and now it will come here too. We worry about gay rights. What will ISIS do to gay people if they continue? THINK about it!
juanjo
BSB Addict
I have been an attorney for over 30 years. Before that I did government service and prior to that I grew up in a Navy household since my father was career Navy starting at the very end of WWII up to the mid-1960s. I have lived in many parts of this country as well as overseas. I have lived in areas where there were more non-Christians than Christians and I come from a decidedly non-Christian family. I took my oath to support and defend the Constitution and laws of this country very seriously both in government service and when I took it again when I was sworn in as a lawyer. So below is my comments on this issue.
1. At this point we have little information as to the backstory on this shooter. So it is far too soon to jump to any conclusions as to his motivations or how he arrived at the point where he decided to shoot up these offices and kill these folks.
2. At the present time there are roughly the same number of Christians and Muslims in the world. The vast majority of those folks are decent, hard working folks who are trying to make and living and raise their families. They do not think the same way or have the same experiences as a typical US citizen. There are small factions in each where extremist views hold. Some in the Muslim world are receiving funding from various sources for various motivations to stir up trouble. The vast majority of that trouble is directed at the fellow co-religionists not at outsiders. Far more has been caused by Christian religious fanatics in the United States over the 200+ years of our country's history than by Muslims. Consider the Dylann Roof who murdered those fine people in South Carolina. He has ties to the Christian Identity Movement and other White supremacist organizations. Timothy McVeigh did as well. So did Eric Rudolf, who set off bombs at the Atlanta Olympics, bomber gay bars and women's clinics in Georgia and committed other heinous acts. Wade Michael Page, Jerad and Amanda Miller, Larry McQuilliams, Frazier Glenn Miller, and numerous others have attacked people based upon extremist Christian views which are anti0government, violently opposed to anyone who is not a part of their racial and religious perspective and dedicated to the destruction of a free and democratic form of government. The fact is that while 9/11 was a horrendous act by religious and political extremists if an Islamic bent, the vast majority of attacks on the soil of this country both prior to and since 9/11 have been by Christian extremists directed at other Christians as well as my people - the Jews, Muslims. Sikhs and other people because of their religion or skin color.
3. I hear talk of Snowdon as well as that we need to tighten down on the very freedoms we celebrate in this country in order to defeat "terrorism". I am sorry but I remember the same talk in the 1950s and 1960 due to the "communist threat". If one goes back into our history this type of talk has been made going back to the very start of the country. The "sedition laws" under our second president were an attempt to curtail our "civil liberties" because of the great danger the republic faced. The expulsion form this country of citizens and legal residents in the early 1900s, particularly during and immediately after WWII, is another good example. The round-up of Japanese Americans who were confined to concentration camps during WWII is a third such example.
When I hear this talk I am reminded of two simple quotes form past history. First is from Juvenal, the 1st Century Roman writer, who said "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" [who shall watch the watchers]? The second is from Benjamin Frankin who said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety". The fact is that the freedoms enshrined in our Constitution are the essential pillars of a free government; when this support is taken away, the constitution of a free society is dissolved, and tyranny is erected on its ruins. Republics and limited monarchies derive their strength and vigor from a popular examination into the action of the government.
4. Now I am well aware that those civil rights enshrined in our Constitution are not unlimited. For example a person may not engage in speech or action specifically designed to destroy the country, conspire to murder people or destroy property. Likewise the 2nd Amendment right to own firearms is not unlimited. You cannot own a tank fully functioning with ammo, a nuclear arsenal or automatic weapons. The concept of requiring a gun owner to undergo a background check, participate in a rigorous gun safety program and the restrict the firepower does no violence to the Constitution so long as it is reasonable. I own firearms and I grew up around firearms. But I have never in my 60+ years even considered walking down the street with a firearm strapped to my hip nor have I ever felt I needed a firearm to protect myself in public.
5. Sharia Law - I am sorry but this is one of those terms like "motherhood" or "patriotism" which is emotionally loaded, ill defined and usually not well understood by the person offering the term for consumption. Anyone who tells you what "Sharia Law" is for the most part not telling you the truth. There is no volume of "sharia" law and depending on where you are in the Muslim world the laws defined as Sharai law are quite different. Sharia law is based upon interpretations of the Qu'ran and the sayings of Mohammed. There is no definitive collection of those sayings and there is no definitive interpretation of the Qu'ran or those sayings much as there is none of the Bible.
Most of what is considered as sharia law is based on Christian and Jewish religious law with some tribal custom added in. For example, the requirement that women wear a hair covering is found in both old Jewish religious law that both men and women dress modestly as well as in the Qu'ran saying the same. There is no requirement that women walk around wrapped in a sheet. That is an extremist view. The punishments for crimes are extreme but so are the ones found in the Bible. But the fact is that Mohammed, much like the writers of Leviticus were setting the maximum punishment not the minimum punishment and for the time these were written these were liberal.
To give an explanation most people will understand let's take the old "eye for an eye" law found in Leviticus. Ancient tribal tradition prior to this and even found today in many parts of the world is that if you cause harm to a member of my family, I am free to go out and kill as many members of your family as I can find. Leviticus set up the simple concepts that punishments must be proportionate and there must be guidelines - trials and impartial judges. The Qu'ran did the same. So for example under sharia law a thief can have his hand cut off [a punishment also found in the Bible] BUT a lesser punishment can be given.
Now there are those who would like to implement Biblical law in the US. One nut case actually tried to get the death penalty for homosexuality on the ballot in the next general election here in California. He did not succeed. But if you go back through the speeches of some of the men currently running for political office including some candidates for president now you will find comments about instituting legal punishments for adultery and out of wedlock childbirth. But the fact is that under our Constitution sharia law, whether a Muslim or Christian or Jewish form cannot be instituted in the United States. Are there extremists who would like their own version installed? Of course. Is it going to happen? Not likely.
My essential point to this long ramble is this. There are political and religious extremists in this country and in the world. To a certain extent the Cold War kept them under wraps because neither the Soviets or the US had any use for them. The Cold War is gone and the lunatics are free to run around a bit more. Communication is easier now both because some walls have fallen but also because there is better technology. We will get through this time period and things will settle down. Then we will be on to the next crisis. But do not sell out your civil rights for a promise of security. The Germans did that in the 1930s and it did not work out well for them. The Libyans did that in the 1960s and look what they got in return. The French did it with Napoleon and an entire generation of their young men were essentially wiped out. The Russians did it with the Bolsheviks and they are still paying for the damage done to them.
1. At this point we have little information as to the backstory on this shooter. So it is far too soon to jump to any conclusions as to his motivations or how he arrived at the point where he decided to shoot up these offices and kill these folks.
2. At the present time there are roughly the same number of Christians and Muslims in the world. The vast majority of those folks are decent, hard working folks who are trying to make and living and raise their families. They do not think the same way or have the same experiences as a typical US citizen. There are small factions in each where extremist views hold. Some in the Muslim world are receiving funding from various sources for various motivations to stir up trouble. The vast majority of that trouble is directed at the fellow co-religionists not at outsiders. Far more has been caused by Christian religious fanatics in the United States over the 200+ years of our country's history than by Muslims. Consider the Dylann Roof who murdered those fine people in South Carolina. He has ties to the Christian Identity Movement and other White supremacist organizations. Timothy McVeigh did as well. So did Eric Rudolf, who set off bombs at the Atlanta Olympics, bomber gay bars and women's clinics in Georgia and committed other heinous acts. Wade Michael Page, Jerad and Amanda Miller, Larry McQuilliams, Frazier Glenn Miller, and numerous others have attacked people based upon extremist Christian views which are anti0government, violently opposed to anyone who is not a part of their racial and religious perspective and dedicated to the destruction of a free and democratic form of government. The fact is that while 9/11 was a horrendous act by religious and political extremists if an Islamic bent, the vast majority of attacks on the soil of this country both prior to and since 9/11 have been by Christian extremists directed at other Christians as well as my people - the Jews, Muslims. Sikhs and other people because of their religion or skin color.
3. I hear talk of Snowdon as well as that we need to tighten down on the very freedoms we celebrate in this country in order to defeat "terrorism". I am sorry but I remember the same talk in the 1950s and 1960 due to the "communist threat". If one goes back into our history this type of talk has been made going back to the very start of the country. The "sedition laws" under our second president were an attempt to curtail our "civil liberties" because of the great danger the republic faced. The expulsion form this country of citizens and legal residents in the early 1900s, particularly during and immediately after WWII, is another good example. The round-up of Japanese Americans who were confined to concentration camps during WWII is a third such example.
When I hear this talk I am reminded of two simple quotes form past history. First is from Juvenal, the 1st Century Roman writer, who said "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" [who shall watch the watchers]? The second is from Benjamin Frankin who said, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety". The fact is that the freedoms enshrined in our Constitution are the essential pillars of a free government; when this support is taken away, the constitution of a free society is dissolved, and tyranny is erected on its ruins. Republics and limited monarchies derive their strength and vigor from a popular examination into the action of the government.
4. Now I am well aware that those civil rights enshrined in our Constitution are not unlimited. For example a person may not engage in speech or action specifically designed to destroy the country, conspire to murder people or destroy property. Likewise the 2nd Amendment right to own firearms is not unlimited. You cannot own a tank fully functioning with ammo, a nuclear arsenal or automatic weapons. The concept of requiring a gun owner to undergo a background check, participate in a rigorous gun safety program and the restrict the firepower does no violence to the Constitution so long as it is reasonable. I own firearms and I grew up around firearms. But I have never in my 60+ years even considered walking down the street with a firearm strapped to my hip nor have I ever felt I needed a firearm to protect myself in public.
5. Sharia Law - I am sorry but this is one of those terms like "motherhood" or "patriotism" which is emotionally loaded, ill defined and usually not well understood by the person offering the term for consumption. Anyone who tells you what "Sharia Law" is for the most part not telling you the truth. There is no volume of "sharia" law and depending on where you are in the Muslim world the laws defined as Sharai law are quite different. Sharia law is based upon interpretations of the Qu'ran and the sayings of Mohammed. There is no definitive collection of those sayings and there is no definitive interpretation of the Qu'ran or those sayings much as there is none of the Bible.
Most of what is considered as sharia law is based on Christian and Jewish religious law with some tribal custom added in. For example, the requirement that women wear a hair covering is found in both old Jewish religious law that both men and women dress modestly as well as in the Qu'ran saying the same. There is no requirement that women walk around wrapped in a sheet. That is an extremist view. The punishments for crimes are extreme but so are the ones found in the Bible. But the fact is that Mohammed, much like the writers of Leviticus were setting the maximum punishment not the minimum punishment and for the time these were written these were liberal.
To give an explanation most people will understand let's take the old "eye for an eye" law found in Leviticus. Ancient tribal tradition prior to this and even found today in many parts of the world is that if you cause harm to a member of my family, I am free to go out and kill as many members of your family as I can find. Leviticus set up the simple concepts that punishments must be proportionate and there must be guidelines - trials and impartial judges. The Qu'ran did the same. So for example under sharia law a thief can have his hand cut off [a punishment also found in the Bible] BUT a lesser punishment can be given.
Now there are those who would like to implement Biblical law in the US. One nut case actually tried to get the death penalty for homosexuality on the ballot in the next general election here in California. He did not succeed. But if you go back through the speeches of some of the men currently running for political office including some candidates for president now you will find comments about instituting legal punishments for adultery and out of wedlock childbirth. But the fact is that under our Constitution sharia law, whether a Muslim or Christian or Jewish form cannot be instituted in the United States. Are there extremists who would like their own version installed? Of course. Is it going to happen? Not likely.
My essential point to this long ramble is this. There are political and religious extremists in this country and in the world. To a certain extent the Cold War kept them under wraps because neither the Soviets or the US had any use for them. The Cold War is gone and the lunatics are free to run around a bit more. Communication is easier now both because some walls have fallen but also because there is better technology. We will get through this time period and things will settle down. Then we will be on to the next crisis. But do not sell out your civil rights for a promise of security. The Germans did that in the 1930s and it did not work out well for them. The Libyans did that in the 1960s and look what they got in return. The French did it with Napoleon and an entire generation of their young men were essentially wiped out. The Russians did it with the Bolsheviks and they are still paying for the damage done to them.
louis33705
BSB Addict
Without getting too religious here let me quote something from the Bible.
Matthew 5:39 Jesus said, "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other one."
Jesus was "crucified" for being a peaceful person.
We are a Nation that claims to be a peaceful Nation. Yet, our People continue to be crucified. Was it not one of Jesus' disciples who charged in His defense and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers?
So you have to weigh this within your hearts. Are we living in times where we should just turn the other cheek, or are we at the point where we need to charge in defense and protect all that we believe in?
BREAKING NEWS - It was just announced that a fifth victim from the Tennessee shooting died today. He was one of the ones listed as injured.
http://news.yahoo.com/tennessee-gunmans-rampage-came-ordinary-upbringing-064853080.html
Within 2 months, ISIS has claimed 14 innocent lives on our soil. This is not acceptable and appalling.
Yes, Drake, this is disgusting. I totally feel for you and you sentiments. I understand. I joined the military during the Viet Nam war and if I were young enough today, I would join the military to combat the evil that looms around the world.
Peace,
Louis
Matthew 5:39 Jesus said, "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other one."
Jesus was "crucified" for being a peaceful person.
We are a Nation that claims to be a peaceful Nation. Yet, our People continue to be crucified. Was it not one of Jesus' disciples who charged in His defense and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers?
So you have to weigh this within your hearts. Are we living in times where we should just turn the other cheek, or are we at the point where we need to charge in defense and protect all that we believe in?
BREAKING NEWS - It was just announced that a fifth victim from the Tennessee shooting died today. He was one of the ones listed as injured.
http://news.yahoo.com/tennessee-gunmans-rampage-came-ordinary-upbringing-064853080.html
Within 2 months, ISIS has claimed 14 innocent lives on our soil. This is not acceptable and appalling.
Yes, Drake, this is disgusting. I totally feel for you and you sentiments. I understand. I joined the military during the Viet Nam war and if I were young enough today, I would join the military to combat the evil that looms around the world.
Peace,
Louis
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SGVBOB
BSB Addict
I am thinking, more along the lines of this has been a 'work in progress', (I am SO sorry for the POOR choice of wording, I couldnt think e]of another way to say it.) Our judicial system has become very lax over the years. As well, theBAD guys, for us to loosen or ease up, on things....GET A GRIP!
johnny
BSB Addict
What a Great post juanjo. Kept me up past my bedtime...But wish everyone would read it.
joeychuck2
BSB Addict
We are in a discussion here where we have no control over what really happens. The World including the Islamic countries has to deal with ISIS and other extremists. I just hope everyone can get together and stop them before they take a stronger hold. WWIII is already here in case you didn't realize it. This war is different than all others. Here we don't have a country we are fighting it is not a religion it is not a people it is an extreme ideology that wants us to go back to days of the Bible or Quran. It is not likely that this will happen soon but on the way to their goals many people will die. As wars go you can never predict who will join in and how they will fight. One thing I am sure of is we can not just sit here as a country we have to plan and act as a united country with our allies.
Ambivalent
BSB Addict
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Y'all go, guys -
We can debate ideology all you want - but, America's love of unrestricted gun-ownership is what's leading to all this stuff. Bury your heads in the sand all you want, but the prime, number one reason so many people are dying in your country, is that any maniac or troubled adolescent off the street can buy an easy-to-conceal handgun, or a combat semiautomatic rifle, without any sort of background check, or licensing whatsoever. At an unrestricted gun-show; or over the Internet.
If you all think this is what freedom amounts to - then go ahead, knock yourselves out. The death-toll is going to rise, and rise, and rise. Congratulations: as you confect pious sermons about your sacred constitution, and what Mr. Justice Antonin Scalia thinks it means, more and more of you are going to die. As you desperately protect your right to kill one another. I guess, the good thing is, you are doing slightly better (as regards the death-toll) than a couple of wildly violent South American countries, and (of course) Afghanistan and Iraq. Violent PAKISTAN has you beat by a MILE, though. http://www.humanosphere.org/science...eaths-comparing-the-u-s-to-rest-of-the-world/
Just hope you know, if this is what you think "freedom" amounts to, my American friends. . . most of the civilized world thinks you are f***ing NUTS. If "American exceptionalism means that adolescents have the unquestioned right to buy machine-guns over the Internet; and people have to carry concealed handguns to church, in order to pray - just waiting for the next shootout; and elementary-school teachers are expected to carry "heat" into the classroom, like the NRA says they should - - - well then, you are welcome to be "exceptional". Because. . . . I don't care about abstract debates about "liberty" ~ this is simply mad, barking, wild, pure, INSANITY
Sharia "law" is awful, and violent, and atavistic. But you won't need it, at the rate you're going. You'll murder more of YOURSELVES, defending your precious, misinterpreted, "Second Amendment" rights, than any terrorists ever could. It is just a statistical FACT.
I expect I may get a little bit of negative feedback on this one, but, that's OK. You guys (or those of you who think teenagers should be able, by constitutional right, to purchase military assault-rifles) badly need a reality check.
"A" :-(((
P.S. BTW, the idea that owning a gun (especially in an urban setting) helps one to defend one's family - while it may be true in isolated cases - is for the most part, DEMONSTRABLY FALSE. Far more people who own guns for "personal protection" in the U.S.A. suffer accidents because of them (like accidentally shooting a child or loved-one, in the haze of sleep); or commit suicide with them; than ever successfully defend themselves with that gun, against an armed intruder. http://www.armedwithreason.com/debunking-the-defensive-gun-use-myth/
P.P.S. Why do I, as a Canadian, even give a damn about this??? Well, it's simple. My boyfriend is an American, and I want to get him OUTTA THERE, before any harm comes to him. It's just that simple. I have the highest regard for the United States, in SO many ways, you cannot imagine. . . but on this issue, you guys are totally, and I mean totally, bat-shit CRAZY. No kidding, the United States is never gonna be SWEDEN, or something. . . but, sometimes I wish y'all could just grow up on this issue. . . . *SIGH*
We can debate ideology all you want - but, America's love of unrestricted gun-ownership is what's leading to all this stuff. Bury your heads in the sand all you want, but the prime, number one reason so many people are dying in your country, is that any maniac or troubled adolescent off the street can buy an easy-to-conceal handgun, or a combat semiautomatic rifle, without any sort of background check, or licensing whatsoever. At an unrestricted gun-show; or over the Internet.
If you all think this is what freedom amounts to - then go ahead, knock yourselves out. The death-toll is going to rise, and rise, and rise. Congratulations: as you confect pious sermons about your sacred constitution, and what Mr. Justice Antonin Scalia thinks it means, more and more of you are going to die. As you desperately protect your right to kill one another. I guess, the good thing is, you are doing slightly better (as regards the death-toll) than a couple of wildly violent South American countries, and (of course) Afghanistan and Iraq. Violent PAKISTAN has you beat by a MILE, though. http://www.humanosphere.org/science...eaths-comparing-the-u-s-to-rest-of-the-world/
Just hope you know, if this is what you think "freedom" amounts to, my American friends. . . most of the civilized world thinks you are f***ing NUTS. If "American exceptionalism means that adolescents have the unquestioned right to buy machine-guns over the Internet; and people have to carry concealed handguns to church, in order to pray - just waiting for the next shootout; and elementary-school teachers are expected to carry "heat" into the classroom, like the NRA says they should - - - well then, you are welcome to be "exceptional". Because. . . . I don't care about abstract debates about "liberty" ~ this is simply mad, barking, wild, pure, INSANITY
Sharia "law" is awful, and violent, and atavistic. But you won't need it, at the rate you're going. You'll murder more of YOURSELVES, defending your precious, misinterpreted, "Second Amendment" rights, than any terrorists ever could. It is just a statistical FACT.
I expect I may get a little bit of negative feedback on this one, but, that's OK. You guys (or those of you who think teenagers should be able, by constitutional right, to purchase military assault-rifles) badly need a reality check.
"A" :-(((
P.S. BTW, the idea that owning a gun (especially in an urban setting) helps one to defend one's family - while it may be true in isolated cases - is for the most part, DEMONSTRABLY FALSE. Far more people who own guns for "personal protection" in the U.S.A. suffer accidents because of them (like accidentally shooting a child or loved-one, in the haze of sleep); or commit suicide with them; than ever successfully defend themselves with that gun, against an armed intruder. http://www.armedwithreason.com/debunking-the-defensive-gun-use-myth/
P.P.S. Why do I, as a Canadian, even give a damn about this??? Well, it's simple. My boyfriend is an American, and I want to get him OUTTA THERE, before any harm comes to him. It's just that simple. I have the highest regard for the United States, in SO many ways, you cannot imagine. . . but on this issue, you guys are totally, and I mean totally, bat-shit CRAZY. No kidding, the United States is never gonna be SWEDEN, or something. . . but, sometimes I wish y'all could just grow up on this issue. . . . *SIGH*
joeychuck2
BSB Addict
When I was a kid I had toy guns played cops and robbers cowboys and Indians had water guns had a bebe gun. even a toy cannon that shot real cannon balls. BUT I never even wanted to own a real gun or go hunting. even fishing bothered me when the fish died out of water. today kids want guns that really kill. It all begins at home with the family.
louis33705
BSB Addict
Without quoting the posts to save on space, Joeychuck many two comments I would like to respond to.
He mentioned that we are in WWIII. I have written in other posts that we are in WWIII. However in I and II we knew where the enemy was located and our strategies to combat them depended on their locations. Today, WWIII is global. You don't know where the enemy is and when or where they will attack next. We talk about wars of "our" generation or that of generations past, but the reality is that we, as living people, are all part of the current generation. I was born at the end of WWII, lived through the Korean War, and served during the Viet Nam War. However, I am still very much a part of the current war today. Three close members of my family are law enforcement officers. I fear for their lives everyday and always say a prayer for their safety.
Guns: I never wanted to own a gun. However, in recent times the thought has constantly crossed my mind to do so. I live in the country, in a trailer, where everything is totally dark at night. We have had wackos running around in locales close to my home committing home invasions and at times killing people.
An interesting incident occurred on our property a few nights ago. I was awakened around 2 in the morning by horrible sounds as if an animal was being tortured. I went out to my deck to see if I would see anything when I saw my 21 y/o neighbor running in the direction of the sounds. The next thing I heard was a Pop, Pop, Pop. Yesterday, I talked to him and asked him what had happened. He said a rabid raccoon had broken into his chicken coop and was ripping the feathers off one of his chickens. He then told me he shot the raccoon and also the chicken to put her out of her misery. He said he put both bodies in the adjacent field for the vultures to feast on.
My point on guns is that while I knew his Dad owned a gun I did not realize the young man owned one also. Somehow, that incident makes me feel more secure. I am now giving it a second thought as to owning a gun myself.
He mentioned that we are in WWIII. I have written in other posts that we are in WWIII. However in I and II we knew where the enemy was located and our strategies to combat them depended on their locations. Today, WWIII is global. You don't know where the enemy is and when or where they will attack next. We talk about wars of "our" generation or that of generations past, but the reality is that we, as living people, are all part of the current generation. I was born at the end of WWII, lived through the Korean War, and served during the Viet Nam War. However, I am still very much a part of the current war today. Three close members of my family are law enforcement officers. I fear for their lives everyday and always say a prayer for their safety.
Guns: I never wanted to own a gun. However, in recent times the thought has constantly crossed my mind to do so. I live in the country, in a trailer, where everything is totally dark at night. We have had wackos running around in locales close to my home committing home invasions and at times killing people.
An interesting incident occurred on our property a few nights ago. I was awakened around 2 in the morning by horrible sounds as if an animal was being tortured. I went out to my deck to see if I would see anything when I saw my 21 y/o neighbor running in the direction of the sounds. The next thing I heard was a Pop, Pop, Pop. Yesterday, I talked to him and asked him what had happened. He said a rabid raccoon had broken into his chicken coop and was ripping the feathers off one of his chickens. He then told me he shot the raccoon and also the chicken to put her out of her misery. He said he put both bodies in the adjacent field for the vultures to feast on.
My point on guns is that while I knew his Dad owned a gun I did not realize the young man owned one also. Somehow, that incident makes me feel more secure. I am now giving it a second thought as to owning a gun myself.
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