PC correctness gone mad - Washington Redskins name change

[joninliverton]

Just read this on the bbc news website

Pressure is mounting on the Washington Redskins to change their name because of the offence it causes Native Americans. But will a club steeped in tradition ever buckle?
It's one of the most famous names in American sports, with a logo recognised the world over.
But even fans of the Washington Redskins are facing up to a belief that it might all have to change.
For many years, some people have questioned why the football team has a name that Native Americans find offensive. And now the campaign is building momentum.
Protests have been organised to greet the team at their away game on Sunday in Wisconsin, which will also mark the start of a season-long ad campaign on the local radio airwaves in every city the team will visit.
More and more journalists are refusing to use the name, the most recent refusenik being Christine Brennan at USA Today, who announced the move on Thursday, thereby joining Peter King at Sports Illustrated and Mike Wise at the Washington Post.

 

[juanjo]

Calling something "PC Correctness" is just code for a bigot who wants to be able to to be rude, offensive and crude and not correct for doing so. If you think the word "Redskins" is perfectly alright, I suggest you go to say Tuba City on Ni'hookaa Diyan Diné, aka the Navajo Nation or Akwesasne, aka the Mohawk Nation. Ask the folks who live there. If you survive, let us know.

Then if that isn't enough to prove the point, go to Chicago on the South Side and ask folks there how they would feel about a name change for the White Sox to the Chicago Coons. Or South Boston and ask the folks there how they would feel about the Red Sox changing their names to the Micks or even better the Orange Sox. Or if a trip across the pond is too much, go to Dublin, hit a pub and order a "black and tan".

 

[rrhill]

How would you feel if you were a native American?

Why not rename the team?

 

[tampa24]

Calling something "PC Correctness" is just code for a bigot who wants to be able to to be rude, offensive and crude and not correct for doing so. If you think the word "Redskins" is perfectly alright, I suggest you go to say Tuba City on Ni'hookaa Diyan Diné, aka the Navajo Nation or Akwesasne, aka the Mohawk Nation. Ask the folks who live there. If you survive, let us know.

I agree with your point Juanjo that things change over time in what is considered in one era as acceptable usage for labels, and becomes unacceptable later. One has to then look to the context in which it is used to decide if it should be changed. In some of our own lifetimes in here we've seen the evolution of what black people in the U.S. deem themselves to be acceptable terms of reference. It has gone from the vulgar pre-Civil War names to "colored" and "negro" (Hence the United Negro College Fund) to "black" and perhaps permanently headed towards "African-American". The perception of the names change with time even when the original intent may or may not have been derogatory at the original point of usage.

How about the song:

"Red & yellow, black, brown & white,
They are precious in His sight;
Jesus loves the little children of the world."

Should we do away the song? Or should we change it to: ??

"Native-American or Aboriginal (Including South Pacific islanders such as Hawaiians, Samoans, etc.) & Asian, African-American, Hispanic or Latino & Caucasian.
They are precious in His sight..."

But wait! If we say "African-American", that is dismissive of millions who actually live in Africa. But here in the U.S. you're on some very shaky ground if you put the word "Africans" out there [such as hypothetically in the song above] with no hyphens or other qualifiers. You wouldn't dare. So isn't easier just to stick with the more inclusive "black" that encompasses African-Americans and people actually living in Africa?

All this to say I guess that PC correctness can be used to try to correct a term that in modern times is now considered derogatory. It's not always just a way for bigots to just keep on discriminating by using more diplomatic sounding language. But we've also seen where attempts to come up with more PC terminology (by those who are very well intentioned by the way) have created their own quandaries, contradictions and pitfalls.

 

[peterh6308]

How would you feel if you were a native American?

Why not rename the team?

My Mother is full blooded Indian "yes we say indian" not sure if Juanjo is native or not but I personnally am proud that our nations capitol chose the name "redskins" and use the logo of a Indian to represent our nations team.

 

[joninliverton]

Calling something "PC Correctness" is just code for a bigot who wants to be able to to be rude, offensive and crude and not correct for doing so. If you think the word "Redskins" is perfectly alright, I suggest you go to say Tuba City on Ni'hookaa Diyan Diné, aka the Navajo Nation or Akwesasne, aka the Mohawk Nation. Ask the folks who live there. If you survive, let us know.

Then if that isn't enough to prove the point, go to Chicago on the South Side and ask folks there how they would feel about a name change for the White Sox to the Chicago Coons. Or South Boston and ask the folks there how they would feel about the Red Sox changing their names to the Micks or even better the Orange Sox. Or if a trip across the pond is too much, go to Dublin, hit a pub and order a "black and tan".

I feel that you are the bigot etc etc. I just quoted what the bbc news stated. How long has the team been called Redskins ? Why have there not been moves to change the name before. It's because of people who shout out whenever someone for example uses the name Golliwog (which was on a jar of Robertsons jam) or use the word nigger which is classed as offensive, unless you are a black guy talking to another black guy when it's seen as cool.

These pc people need to get a life and stop scanning everyones statements "in the name of pc". I think the old statement "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me" should be addressed a bit more and stop crying over a few words that have been used for decades.

 

[juanjo]

" I just quoted what the bbc news stated."

No you did not and I do not consider it worthwhile to engage in a long discussion of your ignorance and general silliness. You have demonstrated that time and again.

 

[KRU1996]

... comment removed ...

 

[joninliverton]

" I just quoted what the bbc news stated."

No you did not and I do not consider it worthwhile to engage in a long discussion of your ignorance and general silliness. You have demonstrated that time and again.

Well if you don't like my posts then don't respond. It's not surprising that some forum members have left when there are people like you around.

 

[rrhill]

"Brandon Stevens, an Oneida Nation official told the Milwaukee-Wisconsin Journal-Sentinel: "The warrior image is not the image we want to be portrayed. We've moved past the time of Western encroachment and how the West was won, and that's where all the images are taken from — when we were a valiant enemy. [Now] We're educators, we're community members, we have families and go to work like everyone else. Having those negative stereotypes takes us back 100 years."
source: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...rotest-green-bay-packers-oneida-indian-nation

 

[peterh6308]

"Brandon Stevens, an Oneida Nation official told the Milwaukee-Wisconsin Journal-Sentinel: "The warrior image is not the image we want to be portrayed. We've moved past the time of Western encroachment and how the West was won, and that's where all the images are taken from — when we were a valiant enemy. [Now] We're educators, we're community members, we have families and go to work like everyone else. Having those negative stereotypes takes us back 100 years."
source: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...rotest-green-bay-packers-oneida-indian-nation

Although I agree with Brandon on the current status of our people and their accomplishments, the symbol of a warrior chief or any other one should be taken for what it is. A warrior who was proud to fight for his people and land! This doesn't "take us back 100 yrs" in fact the hardships our people lived through should be in the forefront of our young peoples teachings. Symbols represent our proud heritage whether it's on my own tribal t-shirt or the helmut of a football player.

 

[Ms. Kianna]

Well if you don't like my posts then don't respond. It's not surprising that some forum members have left when there are people like you around.

Well, I can honestly say that I can see both sides of this particular issue. That being said, I can see how those that want the change could find your title for this thread offensive......But blaming Juanjo for people leaving the forum is ridiculous and unfair.

 

[peterh6308]

Well, I can honestly say that I can see both sides of this particular issue. That being said, I can see how those that want the change could find your title for this thread offensive......But blaming Juanjo for people leaving the forum is ridiculous and unfair.

I agree, Jon can get defensive when he's being challenged. "can't we all just get along". Everyones opinion is necessary for the forum to work so lets respect someones opinion regardless if you agree or not. The bickering between two members effects all members! Besides this thread is about our feelings about logos.

 

[tampa24]

Well said, Peter!

 

[joninliverton]

I agree, Jon can get defensive when he's being challenged. "can't we all just get along". Everyones opinion is necessary for the forum to work so lets respect someones opinion regardless if you agree or not. The bickering between two members effects all members! Besides this thread is about our feelings about logos.

Peter I don't mind being challenged at all. It's the way J did it which none of his fellow countrymen or women picked up on.

 

[peterh6308]

Peter I don't mind being challenged at all. It's the way J did it which none of his fellow countrymen or women picked up on.

I agree Jon and yes he was quite out of line also. Me being a Native American Indian I am not by the least offended by logos depicting us as warriors or in some cases drunken street bums. Although the warrior is no longer the norm nowadays and lets face it the latter is pretty prevalent in our cities and reservations. My particuliar tribe focuses on certain problems with our people and addiction and education tops this list. Also all Native Indians and tribes themselves don't agree on everything in regards to whats the proper term for our people. My Mother raised us to be proud of our heritage and we grew up calling ourselves Indian, and most of our tribal people the same. Some tribes call themselves native American and thats okay as you can see there is diversity in our people.

 

[joninliverton]

I agree Jon and yes he was quite out of line also. Me being a Native American Indian I am not by the least offended by logos depicting us as warriors or in some cases drunken street bums. Although the warrior is no longer the norm nowadays and lets face it the latter is pretty prevalent in our cities and reservations. My particuliar tribe focuses on certain problems with our people and addiction and education tops this list. Also all Native Indians and tribes themselves don't agree on everything in regards to whats the proper term for our people. My Mother raised us to be proud of our heritage and we grew up calling ourselves Indian, and most of our tribal people the same. Some tribes call themselves native American and thats okay as you can see there is diversity in our people.

You're a good sort Peter and my intention was not to undermine or offend the native American Indian but it really was to highlight issues of PC that some people, and probably not the Indians themselves, bring up just for publicity.

Of course, the events in Washington today justifiably put subjects such as this thread on the back burner and rightfully so.

 

[mikeyank]

Well, I can honestly say that I can see both sides of this particular issue. That being said, I can see how those that want the change could find your title for this thread offensive......But blaming Juanjo for people leaving the forum is ridiculous and unfair.

Ms. K has a very valid point that by naming the thread, "PC correctness gone mad - Washington Redskins name change" is offering a biased view on the issue, merely by the title. I want to make two comments.

First on the issue of the team changing it's name, I feel guilty because as a sports fan, I like the sense of tradition with a team and it's fan base, and I know that the Redskins are near and dear to many Washingtonians and a team name change would go against the tradition. But I also understand what Juanjo said about offensive names, and I can see that what is right is more important that keeping sports fans happy, so I am unsure of what I think should be done.

Second, I also agree with Ms. K that it's unfair to blame one of our fellow forumites for people leaving the forum. We all have issues near and dear to our heart, and obviously Juanjo feels strongly about discrimination against Native Americans, or American Indians as Peter and his mom say, so I can understand where Jon's comments may have set him off.

I want more people to join in, and certainly for the "old timers" to remain here on the forum.

 

[joninliverton]

Ms. K has a very valid point that by naming the thread, "PC correctness gone mad - Washington Redskins name change" is offering a biased view on the issue, merely by the title. I want to make two comments.

First on the issue of the team changing it's name, I feel guilty because as a sports fan, I like the sense of tradition with a team and it's fan base, and I know that the Redskins are near and dear to many Washingtonians and a team name change would go against the tradition. But I also understand what Juanjo said about offensive names, and I can see that what is right is more important that keeping sports fans happy, so I am unsure of what I think should be done.

Second, I also agree with Ms. K that it's unfair to blame one of our fellow forumites for people leaving the forum. We all have issues near and dear to our heart, and obviously Juanjo feels strongly about discrimination against Native Americans, or American Indians as Peter and his mom say, so I can understand where Jon's comments may have set him off.

I want more people to join in, and certainly for the "old timers" to remain here on the forum.

Some people have made a mountain out of a molehill regarding this issue. All I did was to read an article on the BBC news website which I thought may draw some comments from my American friends. As a Brit I saw no connection with the name Redskins as I do not see a connection with the Kansas City Chiefs or the Chicago Bears.

Regarding the thread title; well I do find political correctness over the top these days and very much time wasting which often results in unnecessary bureaucracy, expense and hurt.

My comment regarding people leaving the forum was in response to J's nasty response to my thread and to my character, which apart from Peter no one else has commented about, so it just goes to show you lot stick together to which I am quite saddened.

I shall now refrain from bringing up American topics on this forum and let you guys walk around as if nothing topical happens. Where are the forumites who used to engage in topical issues such as gun law etc ? A terrible thing happened in Washington yesterday but no one has started a thread about it, as no one has done about the floods in Colorado, where my dear friend Laura lives.

Nowadays I feel people think twice about starting a thread in case they get bit in the arse like I have done on this one. Very sad indeed.

 

[Declyn]

They should just keep the name and change the mascot....

Go team spud!