If "Men are From Mars........"

[betudidntknow]

If men are from "Mars and Women are from Venus" as the book I read a while back says, then what planet are Gay Men from?

I started a thread a few weeks ago about, a better fit for Jaden on College Dudes. That thread prompted some very good dialogue and some different perspectives. I mentioned "...dar", meaning, my "gay-dar". Something that alerts me that someone may have characteristics commonly attributed to "gay men". There were a lot of very good points brought up in that "dialogue" but, I don't recall any mention of, the suggestion of gay men being wired slightly different from "Straight Men" or men who are primarily attracted to women? I would definitely say, I perceives "the world" differently than some guys who I "know" are strictly "heterosexual". I can identify my emotional "triggers" closer to that of a woman! I am by no means an "effeminate" person. I would actually say, my "gay-dar" goes beyond the ability to pick up on obvious clues. I pick up on subtle, emotional clues that I can identify with, being a gay man, when I see them in others too. While I am attracted to (and my "straight guy fantasy supports") the obvious "outward" characteristics of many of the models here, I am also attracted to the guys who can show their "feminine side" as well! That would be the sensitivity, even, emotional side, that typically isn't displayed by "men".

I would be interested to know how others perceive the differences and how it relates to your "straight guy fantasies?"

 

[another1]

as a gay man, it pains me to admit that I have no gaydar. when it comes to pointing out the gay guys in the room, I look to my straight friends.
I remember there was a study that find that a percentage higher than change of the participants choose the gay persons just by looking at photos of faces.
the big debate is whether being gay is genetically driven or environmentally driven. in the lead is the experts who think being gay is some combination of the two drivers.
the idea is that women are a soft gender weaken by the use of emotion and intuition. tears and aunt flo visits are not signs of strength.
men, on the other hand, use reason and action. chop wood for the fire. kill a deer.
I know neither is true.
to me being gay is not about being more like a woman.
I find myself drawn to men who listens and not just talks. I like straight men who think they are being chased and are fearful that fleeing would not be the best thing to do. I let my eyes, voice, conversation take control. then I move to talk the ladies. on the return trip from the head, he stops to chat. if I am lucky, then we will leave together. if not lucky, then I could have a friend. from a gay point of view getting off is getting lucky, but from a straight point of view another man getting off is a personal thing. for him getting lucky is going home with one of the ladies.
being gay is the desire to find a man with whom you can be comfortable, even after the first time in bed.

 

[another1]

straight men are from mars, gay men are from uranus!

 

[betudidntknow]

straight men are from mars, gay men are from uranus!

That's actually funny! I didn't think of that! Me...one who loves word play!

 

[joninliverton]

"I met a man from mars, he picked up all my guitars and played me travelling songs"

 

[Ambivalent]

Well, "Betu" ~

When it comes to "gaydar" - I think there's a little truth, and a lot of myth, in all this.

The myth is, in my opinion, that gay men have some kind of inborn or "psychic sensitivity", by which to discern which men they encounter, in the world, who might share their proclivities. One can never judge a book entirely by its cover, and I'd suggest the belief in "gaydar" is a combination of "fond hope", plus more than a little stereotyping. (Which was necessary, in days of yore - when one could be arrested, for approaching the wrong person :-((( . . . )

The little bit of truth is, I think, quite empirical. If one spends five, ten, twenty, thirty, or FIFTY years experiencing the company of men - rather hoping to keep CLOSER company, with some of them. . . ones DOES (perhaps) eventually acquire an inventory of experiences about certain "cues", which might suggest that someone is gay (or bisexual, or CURIOUS): and also about the various subterfuges people (who are so inclined) sometimes use to hide these inclinations, or curiosities. (At least in the beginning.)

But none of these perceived cues is INFALLIBLE. In the first place, often there is MISPERCEPTION, at work. Second, sometimes the "usual clues" are anomalies in the personality of an UNUSUAL PERSON. Yes, our suspicions may often be correct; but very frequently, also, they are INCORRECT.

Fortunately, in the more liberal and tolerant age in which we are now living, I think "gaydar", and its attendant secret-agent's disposition, is no longer a necessary thing - even though speculation is always amusing. I prefer to take people at their word. . . and, fortunately, these days, most people who are inclined at all to a romance - or even a friendship predicated upon significant sharing of sexual interests, or ideas - are willing to tell you so: if you are kind and decent, and don't attempt to invade their personal space, before they are ready to share a little of it, with you.

And, while I apologize for the overly discursive preface, I think it leads directly into my answer to your original question, and that is: [I think gay men, just like straight men, and bisexual men (and straight, gay, and bisexual WOMEN): are from EVERY PLANET in the Milky WAY.

A standard answer which I've often heard given - which does, in fact, fit many of my gay friends, is - that we are people with some of the emotional sensitivity of many women, and the high SEX-DRIVE, of many men ;-) But, while that is often true, it is not invariably so ;-)))

I have known straight guys who are rough and tough and hard as lumberjacks. . . but I have ALSO known straight men who are as tender as LAMBKINS, and love opera and Broadway musicals. (Honestly, straight men who would never dream of having a physical encounter, with another man.)

The same goes, for gay guys:
*I know some who "fit" all the received stereotypes - I know some gay men who are neat, fastidious, and love beautiful furniture and interiors and clothing.
*I know other gay men who are messy and unkempt and utterly HEEDLESS of their dress, or surroundings.
*I know some gay men who (in the older generation) - love classical music and opera and Renaissance art: and others (in the same generation) who love Country and Western, and American football, and monster-truck shows.
*I know some gay men who (in the younger generation) - love "emo" music and slam poetry-sessions: and others (in the same generation) who love thrash-metal and riding dirt-bikes in the desert.
*I know some gay men who are exquisitely refined, and in tune with others' sensibilities: and others who are rough and tough, and basically take the attitude, "my way, or the HIGHWAY."
*I know some gay men who are liberals, some who are conservatives, some who are socialists - and even a few who are outright fascists or Stalinists.
*I know some gay men who love women as their best friends: and some who are absolute misogynists.

****************************************

"Betu" ~ those are just a few examples of some of the polarities, which often are remarked-upon. BUT. . . the most interesting thing, to me, is that all these variables can be commingled in INFINITE variations. . . like a KALEIDOSCOPE.

Honestly, I think, in my lifetime, I have known (with varying degrees of appreciation, and/or love, or horror):
* A gay National Socialist, who loved opera, hated women, and was moved to tears by ROSES.
* A gay railway engineer, who loved the mechanics of locomotives, more than anything - but who also loved to compose music for the organ (which he did, quite beautifully).
* A gay couple from Alabama who were super-right-wing Republicans (they hated JFK, and J. Edgar Hoover was their biggest hero): but who really didn't live UP to the myths they put out about themselves, because, when it came right down to it - - - - on matters of civil rights, and human rights, they mostly recanted and loved individuals who had different backgrounds or ideas: they just thought it was SWELL that Hoover (as a gay man, in the bad old days) kicked the Kennedy brothers in the NUTS.
* A colonel from - - - I'm not gonna say where - who is tough as nails, and very dangerous if you ever crossed him, but. . . in person, is really as kind as a KITTEN!
* A super-liberal gay guy who spent years in Japan, and loves SUMO wrestling, above all other things. . . but is COLD and CRUEL as ICE, when you get to know him.
* A quiet secretary, who is silent as a mouse, who is too scared EVER to express an opinion on ANYTHING - and who never marches in a parade - but who nonetheless mustered the courage to MARRY his boyfriend, despite his bosses' disapproval. (And won acceptance, therefor.)
* A brace of tough gay truckers and construction-workers, who think the word "gay" is too effete for them, and drink and belch and fight HARDER than ANY straight guy. . . and yet, send their Moms flowers every "Mother's Day", and WEEP whenever they hear Celine Dion SING. . . . .

****************************************************

And, "Betu" ~ that's just the TIP of the ICEBERG. As Hamlet famously declared, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio/ Than are dreamt of, in your philosophy." And so it is, in our lives, as gay men. Or simply as human beings, in the larger sense.

Indeed, yes: often we are able to catch a little glimmer of a person's psyche, and take a WILD GUESS, that one friend or acquaintance (or another) might feel as WE DO, when it comes to things physical - or romantic. But. . . those glimmers are not always the light that leads to true discernment ~ for, sometimes, we are wrong.

And, above and beyond all that (which is the more, and the MOST important lesson, I think): as significant as a person's sexual orientation and NEEDS are, in the compass of his own psychic economy. . . there is almost nothing to be known of him, or her, based upon the knowledge, of such needs. For, human beings exist in an almost infinitely variable congeries of psychological and intellectual and spiritual permutations.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., was heterosexual - so was Ted Bundy. St. Anselm was (many scholars believe) gay - so was Jeffrey Dahmer. People's sexual needs and feelings are so opaque and complex, really, unless they declare them honestly, to you, it is all quite imponderable. . . And so it is with their characters - until, at the end of the day, you inspect and assess and judge their WORDS, and WORKS, and DEEDS.

Each one of us FEELS, EXPRESSES, and LIVES OUT his sexual feelings in a completely individual way. Each one of us lives out his moral, ethical, social, political, and FAMILY life, completely individually, too. And there is really no way of telling, or making a judgement, until you get to KNOW that person as an INDIVIDUAL. Each of us, lives on his own special, and only remotely accessible, planet.

The toughest, most hard-bitten cop or dock-worker you ever met, who swears and spits and expresses himself in endless series of epithets: MAY prove to be the gentlest, sweetest, GAYEST man you ever met. The mildest little florist, who listens to musicals on a regular basis, MAY (I'm not saying it will happen often, but MAY) - prove to be the most determinedly and fervently HETEROSEXUAL man you ever met.

One simply never knows. . . because. . . we are ALL individuals. And gay men, and straight men (and gay women, and straight women) are ALL from different planets. This, I think, is the great mystery, of life. All we can do, I think, is listen to each other, talk to each other, and be willing to love those who are willing to listen, back.

"A" XOXOXOXOXOXOXO

*Gustav Holst, "Venus, the bringer of peace": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1f8HjIkU3M

 

[betudidntknow]

If you don't mind Ambi; I am going to cut and paste and save, (perhaps even frame) this entire page you've written and expressed so eloquently!

As this is always going to be a topic of unlimited interpretation, I truly enjoyed what you have shared!

Sincerely;
Betu~
P.S. I believe you to be a BEAUTIFUL human being!

 

[joninliverton]

If you don't mind Ambi; I am going to cut and paste and save, (perhaps even frame) this entire page you've written and expressed so eloquently!

As this is always going to be a topic of unlimited interpretation, I truly enjoyed what you have shared!

Sincerely;
Betu~
P.S. I believe you to be a BEAUTIFUL human being!

Yes Betu, he is very articulate in his writing.

 

[Ambivalent]

If you don't mind Ambi; I am going to cut and paste and save, (perhaps even frame) this entire page you've written and expressed so eloquently!

As this is always going to be a topic of unlimited interpretation, I truly enjoyed what you have shared!

Sincerely;
Betu~
P.S. I believe you to be a BEAUTIFUL human being!

**********************************

Dear "Betu" ~

I'm absolutely honoured and touched, that you thought my discursion on this topic interesting enough to save. It does comprehend my honest observations, over many years, and it is tinged with my general philosophical approach to things, which is nominalist, in the technical sense. That is, while I am really a frustrated Platonist, who fervently wishes that universal concepts offered the key TO the universe. . . . my experience has led me to conclude, like Epicurus, William of Occam, David Hume, and John Stuart Mill (though in a much more halting, faltering, way): that, to put it as the French do, "La verite est toujours dans les nuances."

At any rate, "Betu", it was a pleasure to engage in this very interesting discussion, with you - it's a perennial one, for us gay men, and I really appreciate your having raised it, here.

"A" XOXOXOXOXO

P.S. I think you are a beautiful human being, as well!

 

[Ambivalent]

Yes Betu, he is very articulate in his writing.

**************************************

Dear Jon,

You write altogether as well as I do. . . not to mention, you are more sensible by three-quarters! It is a joy to know you, in every respect.

Hugs, your friend,
"A" XOXOXOXOXO

 

[joninliverton]

**************************************

Dear Jon,

You write altogether as well as I do. . . not to mention, you are more sensible by three-quarters! It is a joy to know you, in every respect.

Hugs, your friend,
"A" XOXOXOXOXO

Thank you and likewise. xx