• CLICK HERE To Join Broke Straight Boys & Instantly Get Full Access To Entire Site & 3 FREE bonus sites.

Healthcare Reform Upheld!!! :)

tampa24

BSB God
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Posts
28,704
Reaction score
3,552
Location
Florida
I am still in shock today. I am elated! I am in stunned (in a very good way) that the Supreme Court upheld Obama's healthcare reform, including the insurance mandate. Who knew that Roberts would end up supporting it? haha

This is a happy day. I almost wanted to cry when I heard the news. I was fully prepared for the ruling to go the other way.

Any comments from others?
 
you never know how the court will rule, until the decision is announced.
 
I am still in shock today. I am elated! I am in stunned (in a very good way) that the Supreme Court upheld Obama's healthcare reform, including the insurance mandate. Who knew that Roberts would end up supporting it? haha

This is a happy day. I almost wanted to cry when I heard the news. I was fully prepared for the ruling to go the other way.

Any comments from others?

So what is Obama's reform ? Who is Robert ? You know I'm interested on what goes on over there x
 
roberts is the chief justice of the u s supreme court.
the court is known as the robert's court, because we name the period a person serves as chief after the chief.
the surprise is that a member of the more conservative group on the court, it was widely thought that chief justice roberts would vote with the conservates and rule that the law was unconstitutional.
that he found an argument that supported the view that the law was constitutional came as a surprise.
 
i have not yet read the full opinion, but the talking heads suggest that the chief agreed with his conservative colleague that the law would not stand using the power of congress to regulate commerce. if he had stopped there the law would have been found unconstitutional. he went on to say that congress has broad taxing power to provide for the general welfare and took the position that using that power the law passed by the congress and signed by the president was constitutional.
the shock is that the chief didn't stop considering how the law could be found constitutional when he got to a strong agrument that it wasn't constitutional.
 
The Perils of American Universal Health Care!

So what is Obama's reform ? Who is Robert ? You know I'm interested on what goes on over there x

Dear jon,

We have lagged behind all of the more advanced western powers in this "universal health care" area. Because of the fear approaching hysteria for "Communism" after WWII and our generally ill-informed distrust for all things "Socialized", the US has stubbornly gone its own way supporting business moreso than anything coming down representative of "Big Brother"!

This insurance reform was a laborous process backed Obama and included deliberately many provisions that the Republicans demanded that he included to demonstrate his willingness to compromise between the two parties and show a good faith effort. Republicans vowed when he was first elected that he would only get one crack at a term as President and have been "Obstructionists - ad nauseum" to anything Obama has proposed, regardless if it was originally favored by the opposing party over the objections of his own Democrats. Regardless of all the unhappiness created on both sides by the various provisions, Obama, at great personal political risks, decided to "lead" and vowed to stick with this issue to the end.

The Republicans including their most radical offspring-The Tea Party ONLY think in term of their next election and NOT for what is best for the nation as a whole. Likewise, many similarly inclined Democrats are equally focused just on winning their next election, too. This results in a totally unworkable system of governance, especially when democracy itself requires compromises to be made on behalf of their citizenry, and pseudo-citizen entities such as "business interests", with their outrageous and wasteful compensation plans for only top management" :pimpdaddy: only further water-down legislative efforts for addressing the real problem - the ever-expanding costs of high-cost Health Insurance plans for American families.

Those more willing to compromise across the aisle in either legislative house have already been run our of office and, for now, ONLY the "SHARKS" :shark: and the "BOTTOM-FEEDING CATFISH" :booty: survive with only limited governing skills and still remain in control. Alas, these pitiful excuses for legislators are left as scavengers normally would be picking up political favors from the lobbists and other special interest groups that no longer feel accountable to the very constituents they were elected to represent. This isn't a "Pretty Fishtank" to observe and have to depend upon as national watchguards protecting the safety of our national interests!

Hopefully, Jon, you have a better idea of the so called "process" we assign to our so-called "legislatures" is what we must rely upon to bring a positive close to the "Health Insurance" debate!


Sincerely grateful..."
Common sense, from no less than the Supreme Court, "prevailed" and "Won the Day" afterall​
"!!!:par50:


Stimpy, and definitely not "Skimpy" (as the Health Insurance Companies would have preferred)!
 
Last edited:
So what is Obama's reform ? Who is Robert ? You know I'm interested on what goes on over there x

I'll give this a try Jon. Understanding of course that I am vastly oversimplifying to keep from having to go on for several pages just to attempt to explain it all. Trying to explain the Byzantine and nonsensical U.S. health care system to someone who has lived with universal health care all their lives is difficult at best.

This was a huge week for Obama because his signature achievement so far (other than making sure the economy didn't go into another Great Depression in 2009) was his health care reform bill. Democrats named it the Affordable Care Act. Republicans and other opponents of the health reform bill derisively call it "Obamacare". It provided that insurance companies could not refuse coverage or refuse to pay for treatment due to pre-existing conditions. It provides that parents can keep their children under their health insurance plans to the age of 26. It gradually lowers the out of pocket cost of prescription drugs for seniors and those on disability under the Medicare D plan.

The more controversial part of the bill requires that every citizen purchase health insurance. If they refuse, they are required to pay an annual penalty fee annually to offset the cost to taxpayers if they become ill and require care without insurance. If they are too poor then they will go on a government plan...Medicaid. If their income is too high to qualify for Medicaid but not high enough to purchase health insurance in the open market...the government will set up pools of insurance for people to purchase it at an affordable rate based on their income level.

Most people in the U.S. get their health insurance through their employers, and not so much privately in individual policies. Many companies are nervous as to how much their expenses will go up under the ACA. Many state governments are concerned about how much their expenses will go up as more people qualify for Medicaid. Because Medicaid is paid for with not just federal funds but also from tax receipts of individual states.

The ACA was passed by the Congress and the Senate when Democrats were in the majority there. That is no longer the case. The same bill would have no chance of passing right now since the Republicans are in the majority. And of course if Obama is for something, then they have to be against it. Yet Republicans know that they don't have a large enough majority to vote again and overturn the ACA.

States with mostly Republican governors and majority Republican state governments decided to try to overturn the ACA, not with another vote in the Congress and Senate, but by taking a lawsuit to the Supreme Court. They claimed that the Mandate requiring everyone to purchase health insurance was unconstitutional. An infringement on individual freedom as it were. (Never mind that government forces people to buy car insurance if they drive a car and nobody is up in arms over that.)

The Supreme Court is the last legal recourse in the land right now where the justices could have overturned only the mandate that people buy health insurance....or more importantly, they could have overturned the entire ACA law altogether. The Supreme Court of 9 people is dominated right now by conservatives who were appointed by Republican presidents. They are appointed for life. Like the Pope, they have to die or voluntarily retire before they can be replaced. There are 4 liberals, 4 conservatives and one who usually votes with conservatives. He is often considered the swing vote because he has voted with liberals on the court a few times in the past. He is Justice Kennedy. Justice Kennedy is no relation to the more famous Kennedy family who are all very much liberal Democrats. Chief Justice Roberts is one of the die-hard Republican conservatives.

When the case was brought before the court the assumption was that lawyers for the Obama administration were going to have to really appeal to Justice Kennedy with their arguments if they were to have any chance of the law being upheld. Conservatives are so adamantly opposed to "Obamacare" that the thinking went that if the conservative justices had their way they would overturn the entire law rather than just the individual mandate to carry health insurance.

Justice Kennedy had some very harsh questions during oral arguments for the lawyers defending the ACA on behalf of the Obama administration. There was a pervasive sense that the 4 conservatives, with Kennedy's vote, would overturn the entire health care reform law. Yesterday was a day I was dreading because I was convinced that the ACA would be struck down.

As you know now the ACA was upheld, including the requirement that everyone purchase health insurance or pay an annual fine. What was more shocking after that was finding out which justices voted which way. Kennedy voted against the insurance mandate and wanted to vote down the entire ACA. His vote should have been enough to overturn the law. What happened?

Yesterday we found out that hell froze over. One of the most conservative Republican justices of the court voted to uphold the law. That being Chief Justice Roberts. He weighed his legal decision and went not with party affiliation, but with his interpretation of constitutional law. He said that if someone refusing to buy health insurance were to be threatened with jail or prison...rather than just a fine, then that would be unconstitutional. The ACA does not threaten said person with imprisonment for failure to comply. (Unlike with refusal to carry car insurance for example.)

Roberts says that he interprets this fine as a tax. His legal reasoning therefore was that since Congress does have the legal constitutional authority to tax citizens, then the individual insurance mandate is constitutional. Therefore there are no legal grounds for the Supreme Court to throw out the entire ACA law.

Conservatives are frothing at the mouths in anger because Roberts gave Obama an important political victory in a close presidential election year. Chief Justice Roberts will be vilified by most of the Republican establishment for years to come. He has now alienated many, if not most, of his close personal friends and colleagues.

While we still do not yet have universal health care in the U.S., we are now much closer to a point where access to good and affordable health care will be seen as more of a right of citizenship, rather than as a privilege to be enjoyed only by those who can afford to pay for it.


Oh Happy Days!!:thumbup:
 
roberts said, the government cannot compel people to have health insurance. however, the government can impose a penalty or tax on people who show up for health care delivery without insurance.
the thought was he would have stopped at the finding that you cannot compel people to buy health insurance, game over law is unconstitutional. he went on to say it was the governnment's taxing power that saved the law.
 
Thanks Stimpy and Tampa for the explanation and Another1 one for the additional information. The important thing is, that however rich or poor you are, that you will be able to get health insurance. In the UK the NHS is funded by the government through taxation which covers everything from defence, health, transport, infrastructure etc. Then of course there is the indirect taxation such as VAT (value added tax), road tax, TV licence, taxation on profits (stocks and shares), taxation on house sales, etc the list goes on.
 
Like all good democrats...

roberts said, the government cannot compel people to have health insurance. however, the government can impose a penalty or tax on people who show up for health care delivery without insurance.
the thought was he would have stopped at the finding that you cannot compel people to buy health insurance, game over law is unconstitutional. he went on to say it was the governnment's taxing power that saved the law.

Dear another1,

Like all Good Democrats..."I never met a tax I didn't like!" Golly Gee!!! Thanks Chief Justice Roberts for saving this law, viewing it more than the dreaded "T-word" itself as a "TAX"! I always expected that both "DEATH and TAXES are the two things guaranteed in life!"

I never ever thought in my wildest imagination, I'd be some day be thanking Chief Justice Roberts! Well, who knew!


Sincerely taking this under advisement,



Stimpy
 
WOW! What a thorough and...

I'll give this a try Jon. Understanding of course that I am vastly oversimplifying to keep from having to go on for several pages just to attempt to explain it all. Trying to explain the Byzantine and nonsensical U.S. health care system to someone who has lived with universal health care all their lives is difficult at best.

This was a huge week for Obama because his signature achievement so far (other than making sure the economy didn't go into another Great Depression in 2009) was his health care reform bill. Democrats named it the Affordable Care Act. Republicans and other opponents of the health reform bill derisively call it "Obamacare". It provided that insurance companies could not refuse coverage or refuse to pay for treatment due to pre-existing conditions. It provides that parents can keep their children under their health insurance plans to the age of 26. It gradually lowers the out of pocket cost of prescription drugs for seniors and those on disability under the Medicare D plan.

The more controversial part of the bill requires that every citizen purchase health insurance. If they refuse, they are required to pay an annual penalty fee annually to offset the cost to taxpayers if they become ill and require care without insurance. If they are too poor then they will go on a government plan...Medicaid. If their income is too high to qualify for Medicaid but not high enough to purchase health insurance in the open market...the government will set up pools of insurance for people to purchase it at an affordable rate based on their income level.

Most people in the U.S. get their health insurance through their employers, and not so much privately in individual policies. Many companies are nervous as to how much their expenses will go up under the ACA. Many state governments are concerned about how much their expenses will go up as more people qualify for Medicaid. Because Medicaid is paid for with not just federal funds but also from tax receipts of individual states.

The ACA was passed by the Congress and the Senate when Democrats were in the majority there. That is no longer the case. The same bill would have no chance of passing right now since the Republicans are in the majority. And of course if Obama is for something, then they have to be against it. Yet Republicans know that they don't have a large enough majority to vote again and overturn the ACA.

States with mostly Republican governors and majority Republican state governments decided to try to overturn the ACA, not with another vote in the Congress and Senate, but by taking a lawsuit to the Supreme Court. They claimed that the Mandate requiring everyone to purchase health insurance was unconstitutional. An infringement on individual freedom as it were. (Never mind that government forces people to buy car insurance if they drive a car and nobody is up in arms over that.)

The Supreme Court is the last legal recourse in the land right now where the justices could have overturned only the mandate that people buy health insurance....or more importantly, they could have overturned the entire ACA law altogether. The Supreme Court of 9 people is dominated right now by conservatives who were appointed by Republican presidents. They are appointed for life. Like the Pope, they have to die or voluntarily retire before they can be replaced. There are 4 liberals, 4 conservatives and one who usually votes with conservatives. He is often considered the swing vote because he has voted with liberals on the court a few times in the past. He is Justice Kennedy. Justice Kennedy is no relation to the more famous Kennedy family who are all very much liberal Democrats. Chief Justice Roberts is one of the die-hard Republican conservatives.

When the case was brought before the court the assumption was that lawyers for the Obama administration were going to have to really appeal to Justice Kennedy with their arguments if they were to have any chance of the law being upheld. Conservatives are so adamantly opposed to "Obamacare" that the thinking went that if the conservative justices had their way they would overturn the entire law rather than just the individual mandate to carry health insurance.

Justice Kennedy had some very harsh questions during oral arguments for the lawyers defending the ACA on behalf of the Obama administration. There was a pervasive sense that the 4 conservatives, with Kennedy's vote, would overturn the entire health care reform law. Yesterday was a day I was dreading because I was convinced that the ACA would be struck down.

As you know now the ACA was upheld, including the requirement that everyone purchase health insurance or pay an annual fine. What was more shocking after that was finding out which justices voted which way. Kennedy voted against the insurance mandate and wanted to vote down the entire ACA. His vote should have been enough to overturn the law. What happened?

Yesterday we found out that hell froze over. One of the most conservative Republican justices of the court voted to uphold the law. That being Chief Justice Roberts. He weighed his legal decision and went not with party affiliation, but with his interpretation of constitutional law. He said that if someone refusing to buy health insurance were to be threatened with jail or prison...rather than just a fine, then that would be unconstitutional. The ACA does not threaten said person with imprisonment for failure to comply. (Unlike with refusal to carry car insurance for example.)

Roberts says that he interprets this fine as a tax. His legal reasoning therefore was that since Congress does have the legal constitutional authority to tax citizens, then the individual insurance mandate is constitutional. Therefore there are no legal grounds for the Supreme Court to throw out the entire ACA law.

Conservatives are frothing at the mouths in anger because Roberts gave Obama an important political victory in a close presidential election year. Chief Justice Roberts will be vilified by most of the Republican establishment for years to come. He has now alienated many, if not most, of his close personal friends and colleagues.

While we still do not yet have universal health care in the U.S., we are now much closer to a point where access to good and affordable health care will be seen as more of a right of citizenship, rather than as a privilege to be enjoyed only by those who can afford to pay for it.


Oh Happy Days!!:thumbup:

Dear well-spoken Tampa,

What a thorough and inciteful summary of the ACA. Perhaps you need to contact the Obama Administration offering to be the spokesperson for ACA. All I can say is there was not an hint of spin throughout your statement. Well
Done! You have my complete admiration!

Without a doubt, we have shared in the necessity of the ACA legislation. Hopefully, you will be just as engaged in seeking revisions to minimize the unnecessary complications resulting from attempting to incorporate recommendations from both parties in its design.


Oh Happy Days !! You definitely have my vote,


Stimpy
 
All of you guys are talking about socialism. How are we ever going to pay for all of this? It is not working in Europe. I think Europe is about to blow up. The USA is not far behind. What kind of a state do you want to live in?
 
All of you guys are talking about socialism. How are we ever going to pay for all of this? It is not working in Europe. I think Europe is about to blow up. The USA is not far behind. What kind of a state do you want to live in?

With all due respect where did all this banking crisis start ?
 
The Supreme Court is the last legal recourse in the land right now where the justices could have overturned not only the mandate that people buy health insurance....but more importantly, they could have overturned the entire ACA law altogether.

There were a couple typos in that sentence that I needed to fix for clarity. I hope that makes more sense now.
 
All of you guys are talking about socialism. How are we ever going to pay for all of this? It is not working in Europe. I think Europe is about to blow up. The USA is not far behind. What kind of a state do you want to live in?

With all due respect where did all this banking crisis start ?

I do see your point Tim about the economic concerns in Europe right now. Yet I feel it would be incorrect to blame the economic problems of Europe on universal health care. Those countries spend far less money (as measured by GDP) on health care than the U.S. does. The U.S. spends far more money as a percentage of the overall economy than European countries do. Plus....in Europe every citizen is covered. While the U.S. does offer some of the best health care on the planet for those who can afford it...the system overall is very wasteful and inefficient. Many U.S. citizens cannot get access to decent health care here.

As for the cries of socialism...well I don't see a cradle to grave welfare state happening in the U.S. even with universal health care. And the ACA is still not universal health care.

Jon brings up a good point here. There's actually two points I could raise from his comment. One being that the collapse of the financial markets here in the U.S. (due to greed, arrogance, corruption and malfeasance of funds) was what precipitated the near collapse of the global economy, and Europe's in particular. While I would never say that none of Europe's economic problems were of their own making...(think Italy and Berlusconi for example)...the real crisis started over here.

The other important point would be what our definition of socialism is. If the definition of socialism is taking from all segments of society and giving it to the less fortunate in society...well that happened here in grand fashion and bold headlines in 2007-2008. When the titans of finance here in the U.S. who fancied themselves masters of the universe, went on a proverbial gambling and hooker binge in Las Vegas and awoke penniless...what happened? They asked the government to take tax money from the very poor, the middle class and the wealthy and give it to those who only a few months before were the Super wealthy. That way the fat-cat CEO's and CFO's could keep receiving and giving out multi-million dollar bonuses to those very people who had just gambled away trillions of dollars of other people's money. So the U.S. set the standard in 2008 that socialism for the Super wealthy is okay.

Whereas anything that even vaguely hints at socialism for the poor and middle class is un-American and will bring about the collapse of western civilization as we know it? LOL

To give you some props though Tim I am in agreement with you on the debt and deficit spending. Without major reforms the U.S. could go the way of Greece within a few decades, if not sooner.
 
Last edited:
I do see your point Tim about the economic concerns in Europe right now. Yet I feel it would be incorrect to blame the economic problems of Europe on universal health care. Those countries spend far less money (as measured by GDP) on health care than the U.S. does. The U.S. spends far more money as a percentage of the overall economy than European countries do. Plus....in Europe every citizen is covered. While the U.S. does offer some of the best health care on the planet for those who can afford it...the system overall is very wasteful and inefficient. Many U.S. citizens cannot get access to decent health care here.

As for the cries of socialism...well I don't see a cradle to grave welfare state happening in the U.S. even with universal health care. And the ACA is still not universal health care.

Jon brings up a good point here. There's actually two points I could raise from his comment. One being that the collapse of the financial markets here in the U.S. (due to greed, arrogance, corruption and malfeasance of funds) was what precipitated the near collapse of the global economy, and Europe's in particular. While I would never say that none of Europe's economic problems were of their own making...(think Italy and Berlusconi for example)...the real crisis started over here.

The other important point would be what our definition of socialism is. If the definition of socialism is taking from all segments of society and giving it to the less fortunate in society...well that happened here in grand fashion and bold headlines in 2007-2008. When the titans of finance here in the U.S. who fancied themselves masters of the universe, went on a proverbial gambling and hooker binge in Las Vegas and awoke penniless...what happened? They asked the government to take tax money from the very poor, the middle class and the wealthy and give it to those who only a few months before were the Super wealthy. That way the fat-cat CEO's and CFO's could keep receiving and giving out multi-million dollar bonuses to those very people who had just gambled away trillions of dollars of other people's money. So the U.S. set the standard in 2008 that socialism for the Super wealthy is okay.

Whereas anything that even vaguely hints at socialism for the poor and middle class is un-American and will bring about the collapse of western civilization as we know it? LOL

To give you some props though Tim I am in agreement with you on the debt and deficit spending. Without major reforms the U.S. could go the way of Greece within a few decades, if not sooner.

Good post Tampa. Whilst our great countries have the DowJones and the Footsie, which are tools for the rich to get richer, then I'm afraid us normal citizens havn't a cat in hells chance of improving their status. So instead of investing your spare money into stocks and shares, that some 20yo pimple faced stockbroker convinced you of. Play the lottery instead - you've probably got more chance of winning that.
 
Top