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Empassioned comments about recent gay suicides

Cumrag, thanks so very much for sharing this link with us.
As I am typing this post, I still have tears in my eyes and did cry through out the speech that the City Council Member read and told.

All I ask is when is all of this hate and bullying going to end? My heart is so heavy at the moment with so much emotion. Thanks again for sharing.

Gary
 
Cumrag,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing this with us. Joel's speech was incredibly moving. I'm hoping that all these senseless tragedies will create a national conversation about the issue of what we can do to support gay youth who are being bullied or who are considering suicide. And I mean the inclusive "we" of gays AND straights. Hopefully this will spark the kind of attention that Matthew Shepherd did.
 
Very moving indeed and shame on you America for letting this happen. If you were a bit more liberal and acceptance of Gays and Lesbians in ALL your states - starting from all the governors downwards - then this would cascade.

In the UK ANY sort of bullying is frowned against and if the bullies are reported then it's instant suspension with their parents brought before the head teacher and often the governors.

I get the feeling that Gays and lesbians are, in some states, treated as bad as the blacks were not so long ago.
 
Ah, yes. We always seem to forget the wonderful example of tolerance the UK sets for the world - particularly the beloved Anglican Church which would rather splinter itself into a dozen ineffective entities that admit a gay man might be qualified to administer the sacrements. Perhaps if the church 'were a bit more liberal and accepting' then things such as this wouldn't happen:

25 July 2008, 18 year old Michael Causer was attacked by a group of men at a party in Liverpool, and died from his injuries. It is alleged that he was killed because he was gay.[

October 23, 2008 – 23 year-old gay hairdresser, Daniel Jenkinson, was the victim of a homophobic attack in a Preston club. His attacker, Neil Bibby, 22, also from Preston, was sentenced to 200 hours' unpaid work, a three-month weekend curfew, and ordered to pay £2,000 compensation after he pleaded guilty to assault. Daniel needed facial reconstruction surgery after the attack, and says he is too scared to go out in the city.[

On March 3, 2009 in Bromley, south London, UK. 59 year old Gerry Edwards was stabbed to death by an assailant shouting homophobic abuse. His partner of over twenty years, 56 year old Chris Bevan, was also stabbed and admitted to hospital in a critical condition.

The UK has such a perfect record in black and minority relations, too. The British Crime Survey reveals that in 2004, 87,000 people from black or minority ethnic communities said they had been a victim of a racially motivated crime. They had suffered 49,000 violent attacks, with 4,000 being wounded. At the same time 92,000 white people said they had also fallen victim of a racially motivated crime. The number of violent attacks against whites reached 77,000, while the number of white people who reported being wounded was five times the number of black and minority ethnic victims at 20,000. Most of the offenders (57%) in the racially motivated crimes identified in the British Crime Survey are not white. White victims said 82% of offenders were not white.

I'm not picking on the UK. If I get the chance, I'll live in London. It's among my favorite cities in the world, but the problems of bullying, racism, and gay bashing are not limited to the United States and the solution will come only when we all open our eyes to our own back yards.

That's not why I came to this thread. The link below touched me deeply. He brought me to a connection with our common history. This seemingly gentle little old man showed me where unchecked bullying, brutality, and homophobia can lead. What he survived, no man should ever have to face again. His memory must be etched in our hearts for he is the last.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-1uFsOXWhQ
 
With an attitude like yours we wouldn't let you in.

Sure they would. They let you stay, whether you are wearing your Jekyll or Hyde attitude. I bet they love you just as much, when you are not so lovable.:001_wub:

There are many kinds of prejudice and intolerance, and the U.S. is most definitely not the only place they exist. It is all over the world.:thumbdown:
 
Oh, Jon, those are harsh words for someone coming soon from such a 'tolerant' nation to visit such an intolerant one. Besides, I'm not the one being intolerant. I'm just a citizen of a country struggling with an insurmountable problem where we're very up front about it. We make no secret of the fact that we're caught between the morality of the world's sixteenth century rejects and contemporary society, nor do we hide our hideous slavery past. We can't really hide it since it greets us every morning in the world's headlines. We don't have the benefit of a semi-bridled press. Anyway, I don't have a bad attitude. Not in the way you say I do. I don't lash out, Jekyl and Hyde style, at anyone or anything - except those who attack for no reason - like the ones currently attacking the youth of our country and driving them to a horrid solution. My UK neighbors think I'm rather mild-mannered. It's my conservative mountain friends who think I'm a bit of a radical. Oh, well, as they say in Leeds, "Unless we head at a fair lick, we'll not be seein' equality while I'm out'n the grave."

You, Jon, are blessedly young and have the opportunity to see the world reverse itself. I saw man walk on the moon and Queen Elizabeth being crowned on television. You get to see, perhaps, a gay president or prime minister. Wouldn't it be wonderful if William produced a gay heir and he didn't end up like Edward II with a red hot poker up his ass or James, hiding so deeply in the closet that his translators embedded such hate for his own kind in the Bible that made his name synonymous with Christianity's attacks on us.

I guess what I'm saying, Jon, is stop saying I have bad attitude. I don't. It's getting old. Another thing that's getting old is your constant picking away at us. I read the London Times, I listen to the BBC from London daily, and I watch the news in the evening on BBCAmerica - I don't find it paints quite the negative picture of us that you do. We are all such imperfect creatures.

In the sixties the Brits did three marvelous things, they abolished the death penalty, they legalized homosexualty, and they accepted abortion. We're struggling to catch up, but we are fifty small countries still trying to find a national voice on some issues and that makes it difficult especially when some of our states have such loud and diverse populations. Great Britain is still struggling with these things because of the same problems. Phillip Hansher, that great British commentator says it best:

"Of course, tolerance is now widespread and framed in law. I very much doubt that you could now bring a defamation case against somebody who called you gay if you weren't, any more than you could if somebody wrongly referred to you as Jewish. Nevertheless, "gay" and particularly "lesbian", are still widespread insults. The repulsive Jodie Marsh, who gains much of her prominence from an irony-loving gay following and an avant-garde drag tribute act, uses "lesbian" on television as an insult. The even more repulsive Chris Moyles and Patrick Kielty use "gay" or "gayer" as insults, and are energetically defended by the public-service broadcaster.

Those are direct statements of hatred, deriving from the same feelings that inspire the National Front and the religious nutters to turn out at Gay Pride with their rubbish placards, that led David Copeland to place a bomb in the Admiral Duncan, inspired the murderers of David Morley or Jodi Dobrowski to act. If paranoia is, as Adam Phillips says, the psyche's attempt to maintain the sense of its own significance, then all these attacks - the lady columnists telling us all that nobody wants to hear from us any more, the attempt to reclaim "gay" as an insult and require us not to complain about the insult - are witness to our growing significance in British society."


Now, it's late Saturday morning and I have to go pay my taxes and fix lunch for my son and tackle a desk full of paperwork - the price I pay for living in this country. Then I'm going to pick up my son's car from the garage and pay an outrageous repair bill - the price I pay for being a parent and for not having instilled a love of careful driving in him. Then, because it's the weekend, I get to call my son and his husband in Paris and hear about their ordinary week and wish it were thirty years ago and my husband was alive and we were that age to enjoy that kind of ordinary week, too. And, to wish, above all, Jon, that you and your friend have the most wonderful, ordinary, and enjoyable trip to New York ever. Do not fail to go to the Carnegie Deli and have a bowl of matzah ball soup and a corned beef sandwich. Sometimes I recommend the whole matzah - but, for my gay friends, the 'ball ' is enough! Love and knishes.
 
Sure they would. They let you stay, whether you are wearing your Jekyll or Hyde attitude. I bet they love you just as much, when you are not so lovable.:001_wub:

There are many kinds of prejudice and intolerance, and the U.S. is most definitely not the only place they exist. It is all over the world.:thumbdown:

What a stupid comment.. They let me stay because I was born here doh.. Fuck you and your Jekyll and Hyde attitude too, you do my head in.
 
Oh, Jon, those are harsh words for someone coming soon from such a 'tolerant' nation to visit such an intolerant one. Besides, I'm not the one being intolerant. I'm just a citizen of a country struggling with an insurmountable problem where we're very up front about it. We make no secret of the fact that we're caught between the morality of the world's sixteenth century rejects and contemporary society, nor do we hide our hideous slavery past. We can't really hide it since it greets us every morning in the world's headlines. We don't have the benefit of a semi-bridled press. Anyway, I don't have a bad attitude. Not in the way you say I do. I don't lash out, Jekyl and Hyde style, at anyone or anything - except those who attack for no reason - like the ones currently attacking the youth of our country and driving them to a horrid solution. My UK neighbors think I'm rather mild-mannered. It's my conservative mountain friends who think I'm a bit of a radical. Oh, well, as they say in Leeds, "Unless we head at a fair lick, we'll not be seein' equality while I'm out'n the grave."

You, Jon, are blessedly young and have the opportunity to see the world reverse itself. I saw man walk on the moon and Queen Elizabeth being crowned on television. You get to see, perhaps, a gay president or prime minister. Wouldn't it be wonderful if William produced a gay heir and he didn't end up like Edward II with a red hot poker up his ass or James, hiding so deeply in the closet that his translators embedded such hate for his own kind in the Bible that made his name synonymous with Christianity's attacks on us.

I guess what I'm saying, Jon, is stop saying I have bad attitude. I don't. It's getting old. Another thing that's getting old is your constant picking away at us. I read the London Times, I listen to the BBC from London daily, and I watch the news in the evening on BBCAmerica - I don't find it paints quite the negative picture of us that you do. We are all such imperfect creatures.

In the sixties the Brits did three marvelous things, they abolished the death penalty, they legalized homosexualty, and they accepted abortion. We're struggling to catch up, but we are fifty small countries still trying to find a national voice on some issues and that makes it difficult especially when some of our states have such loud and diverse populations. Great Britain is still struggling with these things because of the same problems. Phillip Hansher, that great British commentator says it best:

"Of course, tolerance is now widespread and framed in law. I very much doubt that you could now bring a defamation case against somebody who called you gay if you weren't, any more than you could if somebody wrongly referred to you as Jewish. Nevertheless, "gay" and particularly "lesbian", are still widespread insults. The repulsive Jodie Marsh, who gains much of her prominence from an irony-loving gay following and an avant-garde drag tribute act, uses "lesbian" on television as an insult. The even more repulsive Chris Moyles and Patrick Kielty use "gay" or "gayer" as insults, and are energetically defended by the public-service broadcaster.

Those are direct statements of hatred, deriving from the same feelings that inspire the National Front and the religious nutters to turn out at Gay Pride with their rubbish placards, that led David Copeland to place a bomb in the Admiral Duncan, inspired the murderers of David Morley or Jodi Dobrowski to act. If paranoia is, as Adam Phillips says, the psyche's attempt to maintain the sense of its own significance, then all these attacks - the lady columnists telling us all that nobody wants to hear from us any more, the attempt to reclaim "gay" as an insult and require us not to complain about the insult - are witness to our growing significance in British society."


Now, it's late Saturday morning and I have to go pay my taxes and fix lunch for my son and tackle a desk full of paperwork - the price I pay for living in this country. Then I'm going to pick up my son's car from the garage and pay an outrageous repair bill - the price I pay for being a parent and for not having instilled a love of careful driving in him. Then, because it's the weekend, I get to call my son and his husband in Paris and hear about their ordinary week and wish it were thirty years ago and my husband was alive and we were that age to enjoy that kind of ordinary week, too. And, to wish, above all, Jon, that you and your friend have the most wonderful, ordinary, and enjoyable trip to New York ever. Do not fail to go to the Carnegie Deli and have a bowl of matzah ball soup and a corned beef sandwich. Sometimes I recommend the whole matzah - but, for my gay friends, the 'ball ' is enough! Love and knishes.

To most of your reply I say tough, you sow your own seeds and choose to lead the life you live - you cannot turn back the pages. You refer to Chris Moyles as being homophobic... get real ... he has an openly gay member on his team "Aled" and he often has gay singers and actors on his show. There is far less gay bashing in the UK then there is in the US and at least our armed forces now allow gays to be open and not have the dont ask dont tell as you guys. It is also not our fault that your constitution allows 50 small countries to have their own laws within your nation, it's like Yorkshire and Lancashire having their own independent laws such as speed limits, drug use, civil partnerships etc etc.

Sorry but I doubt whether we will agree about anything, so I will call it a day and bid you and all your god fearing colleagues a happy weekend.
 
Oh, Jon, of course we'll never agree about anything. Especially when you don't read what I say before you comment on it. I didn't say anything about Chris Moyles, Phillip Hansher did, I merely quoted him. And I didn't blame you for our constitution. We said goodbye to George long before we listened to the Iroquois Confederation's oral constitution and based ours on it - and they're my ancestors - not yours.

Of course you don't understand our state system - one has to live in it for a while to know why we here in the Rockies where it's 200 miles to a mall and 600 inches of snow falls per year need different speed limits than California where it's 3 blocks and some parts of the state haven't seen snow in a century. Or Utah, where its majority Mormon can legislate things no self-respecting Oregonian would dream of. But, then, it's not 2000 miles from Yorkshire to Lancashire as it's 3500 miles from Seattle to Miami. And Florida has no need for laws about how close one can stand to a grizzly or a bison and Wyoming certainly needs nothing on the books about swimming to Cuba. But all of that sounds sarcastic and it is just meant to be a humorous way to say our size makes our divisions more than a little necessary.

We shall never agree, Jon. You are young and hate pomposity and I am old and hate petulance. Your friends long ago labeled me as having attitude, as being Jekyll and Hyde, as taking a cattle prod to a ping pong match. I don't have attitude, I merely feel passion, I am not Jekyll and Hyde - I listen if others listen to me, and I don't own a cattle prod, I prefer the truth. But those ideas are now so ingrained in your arguments that you'd rather toss them out than give me a chance. So, that's okay. We won't argue about anything else - just remember, the next time you're so quick to condemn the US and hold up the example of the UK: you may have passed those laws in the 6o's but you still have the same radical fundamentalists we do and they still do the same damage. So your god-fearing are just as dangerous as ours. We don't have to go back more than a few months to find poor Shaun Dykes. I'd lay odds that his story puts any other to shame. I've copied it from a UK paper and I've included the reader's comments just to get a feel for the similarities between our countries. And, it's only 61 miles from Derby to Leeds.

Gay teen was goaded into suicide by jeering mob
By Tony Grew • October 7, 2008


A 17 year old boy who threw himself off the roof of a shopping centre in Derby last week as some of the crowd gathered to watch goaded him to jump was gay.

In a three hour standoff in the city centre, Shaun Dykes spoke at length to police officers last Saturday before plunging 60ft to his death.

Eyewitness Alasdair Kay told the BBC's Today programme: "I was shopping with my family and couldn't work out why it was taking so long to get out of the car park… (but) as soon as I came out I saw a young lad at the top of the parapet at the shopping centre.

"People were filming… we could hear people shouting "jump you…" followed by a stream of expletives.

"They weren't all just young people, some were middle-aged. To be honest with you I was sickened."

Derbyshire's Chief Constable Mick Creedon has confirmed that members of the public encouraged the teenager to kill himself. Some filmed the event and posted it on the internet.

Pictures of him standing on top of the railings before his death also appeared in the Daily Mail.

It is thought up to 300 people gathered below the shopping centre where Mr Dykes was perched on railings. Some brought their children to watch.


COMMENTS:


The people of Derby should be holding thier heads in SHAME. I for one would not be able to look myself in the face if I had stood by and let this happen, let alone encouraged the loss of another human being. Is this what we have become ?? SHAME

(Report comment)

Comment by jens — October 7, 2008 @ 17:37


Well what a low level human beings have sunk to. Bad enough that they goaded him and shouted encouragement for him to kill himself. Then to film it and put it on the internet, how sick and twisted, it really makes me want to throw up. I just can't believe it. rabid dogs are put down for less.

(Report comment)

Comment by Ric — October 7, 2008 @ 17:46


The poor lad. Who knows what troubles he had that caused him to do this? At that age, problems seem so much more serious than they appear later in life with the benefit of more experience and hindsight.

As for those who goaded him into jumping, it's a shame the police couldn't simply have filmed them and dealt with them later. Who knows, with no one mocking him and telling him to jump, the police may have been able to talk him down to safety.

(Report comment)

Comment by Luke — October 7, 2008 @ 17:46


my face wet…..

a child who finds life too terrible at that moment to live on, and yes at 17yo he is a child starting his life.

It's times like this that wish there were a god of justice

(Report comment)

Comment by apYrs — October 7, 2008 @ 21:08


What's happened to humankind?
Poor boy, I am weeping. May all those who enjoyed watching this tragic event
know that they have blood on their hands. What if it was your own child?

(Report comment)

Comment by B.S.M. — October 7, 2008 @ 22:09


I'm not going to join in the chorus of disapproval of the 'rabid dogs' because the same comments have been posted (literally) a thousand times on other sites already.

What I'd like to comment on is the decision of the papers that went big on this story (notably the Mail) not to mention that the young man was gay despite knowing this from pretty much the start.

And you know why the Mail – and others – didn't mention his sexuality? Because the angle of their story was (understandably, of course) sympathetic to the guy and hostile to the small minority of the crowd who behaved despicably. And in Mailworld, to have mentioned that he was gay would have been a negative. Basically, they feared that such a revelation would have impaired their readers' abilities to sympathise with the victim.

Don't ever forget the way such publications will twist a story to suit to their own ends.

(Report comment)

Comment by Utopian — October 7, 2008 @ 22:39


Christianity in action…

(Report comment)

Comment by Bill Perdue — October 7, 2008 @ 23:00


Jim… you are right, it does not matter about his sexuality. But what does matter is the homophobia involved. It would be simple for the Daily Mail (or any other news outlet) to mention the jeering was homophobic. That is all they needed to say, but they didn't.

It is very sad what has happened, and I do hope that those involved are investigated and, hopefully, charged with hate crimes.

(Report comment)

Comment by Matty Pepprell — October 7, 2008 @ 23:05


Disgracefully, the marxist muppet twists the tragic circumstances of this boys death to try and score a cheap point where none can be made anyway.

(Report comment)

Comment by Luke — October 7, 2008 @ 23:13


To Matty… please indicate the evidence that hatred of the fact that this man was gay was part of what what the disguting people in the onlookers did. Derbyshire Police and Derby City Council need this shuved in their faces if this is the case.

(Report comment)

Comment by Jim — October 7, 2008 @ 23:26


What kind of world are we living in when adults allow their children to stand and watch this poor lad jump to his death whilst having abuse hurtled at him by members of the public. The police have said they never arrested any of the “Bystanders” as they did not have the man power, so the homophobic abuse, I’m also sure there is a crime for assisting suicide and surely telling someone to jump to their death is exactly that will go unpunished, and to make matters worse these so called people also videoed and photographed this poor lad both during and after his suicide, how long before this horrific video will be on YouTube? These people disgust me and I will make a complaint to Derby police regarding why no action was taken, surely they must have CCTV footage of the area (as they do with other public disturbances), personally I would publically humiliate all these bystanders and show them for the backward Neanderthal’s they truly are and the so called parents should be monitored by the local social services as they have some truly strange parenting skills.

(Report comment)

Comment by Daniel Sullivan — October 7, 2008 @ 23:37


Sick homophobes! May they all rot in hell for their hatred. The ones jeering and the others watching this freak show are guilty of assisted murder.


I still love England, Jon, and respect and admire the great strides it's made. I hope one day we can match them. But passing laws and changing hearts are two different things. We elected a black president and I wept with pride when it happened. I am enough of a realist, however, to realize that much of the criticism currently being aimed at him is based not on his policies, but on his race, and I also weep at that. I pray when you and your friends are my age, the world will be beyond this issue. I want you as old men to be able to argue about football and Waterford crystal and tell stories about the bad old days and whistle with impunity at the cute twinks in the tight ass jeans on the street corner. Most of all, when a parent has a little boy who's different, I want them to feel blessed and I want the community to feel blessed. It's possible; the Navajo did it, the Sioux did it. Why can't everyone else?

I realize I'm about to be attacked enmasse by shut-rifle/aquarius-up-squad. So, to save you the distraction, say your worst. I'll shut myself up. I never intend to get drawn into these things. I always end up on somebody else's ignore list. So be it.
 
Rifle/Aquarius - I won't put you on my ignore list as I like people who have the balls to say what they think. Yes you are correct in a way that maybe I don't read all the content of your post but it's because I don't have the time to read large and digest and react to large posts. It would take me lots of my precious time to do the research you have done to get the quotes etc etc... unless you read these things and save them in some super duper filing system.

Regarding state laws, you mention speed limits, grizzly bears etc but you did not reply to dont as don tell and the allowing of "gay marriages", which was the basis of my argument re state/national laws. But then I can also quote, gun law, drugs and the death penalty which also varies from state to state. I find that serious crime matters like that can have different punishments from state to state - to me this is a national issue - but that's me looking from the outside.
 
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