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I never said it was RACIST.........I just think the lack of minorities os just plain STUPID. And shows that people are out of touch!


I think it is a mistake to equate the lack of minority males appearing on this site with racism. This is a fetish porn site, where the core members, including the vast majority who never post on the forum, and perhaps never "vote" on the scenes either. For a person to spend a portion of their income each month on a specific porn site, it would have to indicate that the site is providing a product that turns the viewer on.

Our sexual attraction comes from deep inside and is usually formed when we are quite young, and many of us are attracted to a certain type, and particularly in porn, we want to see the type of guys that the site specializes in. Over the years, when browsing in porn shops, or checking clips online, I am aware that there are studios and sites that specialize in Latino, Asian and African American men, just as there are sites that feature bears, big hairy guys, or extremely muscled body builder types. It is the same with straight porn, with sites featuring Asian women, older women, women with huge breast implants, very young (barely legal) girls, etc. etc.

My point is that while some folks are diverse in their sexual tastes, I believe that the majority of folks who subscribe to a specific site, have very specific sexual taste, and pay their money to see the type that they come to the site for.

I think that Mark is being very honest, when he said, "white guys sell best on our site so that is why we go with white guys more. I am not racist in anyway."

This is a competitive business, and the public is fickle, and I totally respect Mark's business acumen, with his decision to stick to the core type of model that appeals to his core audience.

I do not see the fact that the site features primarily white guys, any more "discriminatory" than the fact that the models are primarily young, thin, and smooth. I don't believe that Mark is discriminating against older men, or overweight men, or hairy men any more than he is against men of color. It is just a specific sexual fetish type that this site features, nothing more and nothing less.

I totally support equality in "real life", including education, right to vote, housing, job opportunities, membership in organizations, etc. I have even been branded a "bleeding heart liberal" many times in my life, but having a "type" that makes my cock hard when watching porn is not racism, it is just my deep seeded sexual orientation.

I have had "obsessions" in my life with young black and Latino guys who have worked with me, or who I see in my neighborhood, and an occasional young man of color on this site would be welcome, but I think that Mark is being wise to generally keep the site what his audience expects to see when they log on. And for anyone to think of him or his site as being racist, is confusing the real world of equal opportunity and a fetish porn site whose general audience has an expectation of what type of model they will see.
 
There are soooo many things fundamentally flawed with this comment, I probably should waste the space on the forum to respond to it. HOWEVER, You are ONE customer. The only common thing about the guys on this site IS that they are CAUCASIAN. In addition how do you explain the MANY people of color on this site who have received GREAT VOTES? Yet you still show Jimmy? Please!!!!!!!!!!!!

All Mark did with his response is alienate a large portion of his clientele if that's business acumen, then I must have missed that part of Business 101....

:wtf:


Show me some true data that supports Mark's remark and I might agree with you, but sucking up and trying to sweet talk the owner when you have VERY little data to go on is just ignorant.

The reason that there are African American sites, is because they cannot get on sites like these....and trust me the men on most other ethnic sites are actually believably straight.

As a minority who has only been with "Straight" guys, most of which are not minorities, and most of which are athletes, or former athletes I have never once had one person say anything like that you or the site owner has said. In addition, typically those who say those things, are people I've since found either:

1. Got turned down by a person of color
2. Grew up in a majority town/household that had poor views and misconceptions of minorities
3. Had a bas situation in life happen to them that was caused by a minority and know hold those silly little stereotypes against all people of color
4. Uneducated (i.e. ignorant) people..........

What's sad is that you even have to have these types of discussions in 2012! Would you turn down an organ if you needed one from a minority? NOPE! Hell I firmly believe people have missed out on the true loves of their lives because they have stupid little skin color "fetishes" or "tastes" or whatever word you want to use that makes you feel comfortable, and keeps you from feeling bad about the fact that you hold prejudiced views. Ignorance is the root of all evil...and part of the reason that while the gay world SCREAMS for equality, people from the outside looking in say, "Now isn't that hypocritical, it's the most racial and social divided and judgmental group on the planet..." I'd be willing to bet that their assumption wouldn't be too far off.
I think it is a mistake to equate the lack of minority males appearing on this site with racism. This is a fetish porn site, where the core members, including the vast majority who never post on the forum, and perhaps never "vote" on the scenes either. For a person to spend a portion of their income each month on a specific porn site, it would have to indicate that the site is providing a product that turns the viewer on.

Our sexual attraction comes from deep inside and is usually formed when we are quite young, and many of us are attracted to a certain type, and particularly in porn, we want to see the type of guys that the site specializes in. Over the years, when browsing in porn shops, or checking clips online, I am aware that there are studios and sites that specialize in Latino, Asian and African American men, just as there are sites that feature bears, big hairy guys, or extremely muscled body builder types. It is the same with straight porn, with sites featuring Asian women, older women, women with huge breast implants, very young (barely legal) girls, etc. etc.

My point is that while some folks are diverse in their sexual tastes, I believe that the majority of folks who subscribe to a specific site, have very specific sexual taste, and pay their money to see the type that they come to the site for.

I think that Mark is being very honest, when he said, "white guys sell best on our site so that is why we go with white guys more. I am not racist in anyway."

This is a competitive business, and the public is fickle, and I totally respect Mark's business acumen, with his decision to stick to the core type of model that appeals to his core audience.

I do not see the fact that the site features primarily white guys, any more "discriminatory" than the fact that the models are primarily young, thin, and smooth. I don't believe that Mark is discriminating against older men, or overweight men, or hairy men any more than he is against men of color. It is just a specific sexual fetish type that this site features, nothing more and nothing less.

I totally support equality in "real life", including education, right to vote, housing, job opportunities, membership in organizations, etc. I have even been branded a "bleeding heart liberal" many times in my life, but having a "type" that makes my cock hard when watching porn is not racism, it is just my deep seeded sexual orientation.

I have had "obsessions" in my life with young black and Latino guys who have worked with me, or who I see in my neighborhood, and an occasional young man of color on this site would be welcome, but I think that Mark is being wise to generally keep the site what his audience expects to see when they log on. And for anyone to think of him or his site as being racist, is confusing the real world of equal opportunity and a fetish porn site whose general audience has an expectation of what type of model they will see.
 
I've been talking about people of all other ethnicities besides Caucasian......


BTW, no one is PURE anything...heck we're all mixed.

there are those in this industry who see fetish porn sites like Broke Straight Boys moving to add more color to their site as cutting into their market and supply of models.
it really is a coke, pepsi and royal crown thing.
when coke changed it's favor to draw pepsi drinkers coke lost its core group and at the same time did not gain any pepsi drinkers.
the message is might be one should do what one does best and let others use their own talents.
fetishs really should not mix.
in any case, the question comes up, are we talking about guys who are identifiably african- american or latino?
i have friends who are mixed race. some look black, some look asian and others look white.
i know a guy from brazil, his mother is from greece and his father from germany. would he count as anglo or latino?
i am identified as black which always puzzled my father.
 
No one is saying that the entire site needs to be MINORITY....damn are people here really that dense? Call 911 the ethnic folks are taking over......What people are saying is why not have MORE....that means if you have 1 maybe have a few more......sheesh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think we're all smart enough to know that there are sites that specialize in specific ethnic groups. But seriously why not get all you need in one site? Sean Cody does a great job of it, so does ASG, the NEXTDOOR line, and a host of other sites. They still seem to be just as successful as Broke Straight Boys Just sayin'


I have to hand it to you Mikey that you have stated your points very well. I don't mind seeing some men of color on here once in a while. That includes not only African-Americans but Native Americans and some Asians. The points that Mikey makes here are pretty solid though in my opinion. There are plenty of sites out there that specialize in men of different ethnicities and fetishes. Broke Straight Boys is very successful with a predominantly caucasian roster of models. I would not go on a chub site and try to convince them of the merits of adding models who weigh 120-150 lbs. I would not go to a bear site and try to convince them to add some smooth, bare-chested guys.

I'm not saying that Zayboy and others are wrong to ask Broke Straight Boys to go with some models of color. Because it's true also that Broke Straight Boys does not bill itself as an exclusively white model site, but as a straight fetish site. So a request to add a few men of more color here is reasonable.

Mikey's points are valid also though that Broke Straight Boys found its core market with customers who appeared to be sexually attracted to a roster of models who are predominantly caucasian. That's the way the marketplace works. To find out out what people want in the marketplace you look at where they spend their money. I do feel there is room here for diversity here without losing members. In fact it might help gain (and retain) a few more. All this provided of course that Broke Straight Boys stays with a majority of models who are caucasian.
 
Tell me this, how does Broke Straight Boys know that it's core market likes caucasians only, and/or the majority of subscribers are caucasians? I know I've never been ask.........just curious.......?


I have to hand it to you Mikey that you have stated your points very well. I don't mind seeing some men of color on here once in a while. That includes not only African-Americans but Native Americans and some Asians. The points that Mikey makes here are pretty solid though in my opinion. There are plenty of sites out there that specialize in men of different ethnicities and fetishes. Broke Straight Boys is very successful with a predominantly caucasian roster of models. I would not go on a chub site and try to convince them of the merits of adding models who weigh 120-150 lbs. I would not go to a bear site and try to convince them to add some smooth, bare-chested guys.

I'm not saying that Zayboy and others are wrong to ask Broke Straight Boys to go with some models of color. Because it's true also that Broke Straight Boys does not bill itself as an exclusively white model site, but as a straight fetish site. So a request to add a few men of more color here is reasonable.

Mikey's points are valid also though that Broke Straight Boys found its core market with customers who appeared to be sexually attracted to a roster of models who are predominantly caucasian. That's the way the marketplace works. To find out out what people want in the marketplace you look at where they spend their money. I do feel there is room here for diversity here without losing members. In fact it might help gain (and retain) a few more. All this provided of course that Broke Straight Boys stays with a majority of models who are caucasian.
 
So I was with a few people when this controversial post went up. Aloud, I read some of the responses and then came upon Marks. I immediatly recognized the potential for this to get blown up.

In the sites defense, A few months back I remember a black model not only applying but being selected! Unfortunatly serious events taking place in that persons life prevented him from coming out as scheduled. He continues to be welcome to work with any of us on Broke Straight Boys

In Marks defense, I think it was more a poor choice of words. We are all guilty of speaking before thinking ... sometimes it just sounds better when your writing it and then is recieved in the wrong directions. Im sure it wasnt meant to offend or degrade anyone.

Also consider that we can only hire those who apply. But ive got a feeling that your wish is coming true even before this thread. I cant speak for Sean Cody and others here but race has never played a factor in Broke Straight Boys Recruitment one way or the other. If they apply they are given the same consideration as everyone else but unfortunatly they simply arnt applying with BluMedia Studios. This is MOST DEFINATLY an Equal Oppertunity Employer.
 
Jason,

Thanks for being thoughtful. HOWEVER, by the siteowners own admission, race does play into who is selected and or scouted to be on Broke Straight Boys So it's more than just those that apply, it's those that are recommended by the people they have out there looking for new talent. In addition, the site owner is a big boy, if he did not mean what he said, or meant it in a different way, he should say that, not you.

Lastly, I can't say this enough, it's not just about African Americans v. Caucasians, it's All other ethnicities V. Caucasian on this site, b/c that's what the site owner things sells. So I'm talking about arabs, east indians, native Americans, Asian, Eskimo, mixed heritage....etc....

I know you probably said that as an example, but I wish people would stop making it seem as if it's SUPER tough to recruit minorities but some how caucasians are a dime a dozen. Thanks again for your thoughtfulness, but the owner of this site obviously stated himself that he caters to the ethnicity that he feels puts the most money in his pocket.

So I was with a few people when this controversial post went up. Aloud, I read some of the responses and then came upon Marks. I immediatly recognized the potential for this to get blown up.

In the sites defense, A few months back I remember a black model not only applying but being selected! Unfortunatly serious events taking place in that persons life prevented him from coming out as scheduled. He continues to be welcome to work with any of us on Broke Straight Boys

In Marks defense, I think it was more a poor choice of words. We are all guilty of speaking before thinking ... sometimes it just sounds better when your writing it and then is recieved in the wrong directions. Im sure it wasnt meant to offend or degrade anyone.

Also consider that we can only hire those who apply. But ive got a feeling that your wish is coming true even before this thread. I cant speak for Sean Cody and others here but race has never played a factor in Broke Straight Boys Recruitment one way or the other. If they apply they are given the same consideration as everyone else but unfortunatly they simply arnt applying with BluMedia Studios. This is MOST DEFINATLY an Equal Oppertunity Employer.
 
Family obligations have been keeping me from the forum lately. I try to check in at least twice a day, to see what is happening.

The direction this thread has taken breaks my heart...........Samm, I love you dearly, BUT......I am positive that Mark's message was not meant, the way that it was taken. I am also positive that what Jason said, was true.

That being said......all the other back and forth messages, intended to bite at, and hurt each other, was better left unsaid........

.........One paragraph can start a war. Very sad, it breaks my heart.
 
Sign me up...no really, please sign me up! (Mark, Mark, still waiting on the call back from the photos I sent:001_tongue:) It would be nice to have a variety of ethnicities, just like it is nice to have a variety of personalities. Good call, zayboy08!

Did he fill out an application? I don't remember seeing these but I don't deal that much with model applications.
 
Family obligations have been keeping me from the forum lately. I try to check in at least twice a day, to see what is happening.

The direction this thread has taken breaks my heart...........Samm, I love you dearly, BUT......I am positive that Mark's message was not meant, the way that it was taken. I am also positive that what Jason said, was true.

That being said......all the other back and forth messages, intended to bite at, and hurt each other, was better left unsaid........

.........One paragraph can start a war. Very sad, it breaks my heart.

I agree and I'm sorry I meant no harm. I've been sick and just exhausted from this webmaster convention so what I said may of not come across in the best way. I sometimes have a hard time expressing myself. I know there is a lot of guys that were popular back in the day. Taz was one of my favs. We still try to get these guys but it has been tough. I would definitely like to see some different guys and our recruiters know about this already.
 
Hey peeps, by no way did I mean for this to turn into a racial war/issue discussion. I just wanted to point out that I have not seen any guys of another ethnicity on the new Broke Straight Boys and I wandered why. It kinda brought some flavor to it even to ppl who pay to see white guys. Why is it so difficult? Oh and btw Jason, I am on your FB friends (Xavier Green) haha ;)
 
Wow. Samm gets 20 internet points for overreacting. Don't worry Mark, there was nothing you said that was wrong.

Whoops.. I mean.. how racist of you to have had minority models on BSB1 and BSB2.. and really, what on earth were you thinking of when you had both a black and deaf model back three times?!?!?!

Sheesh, talk about a whitewash!
 
Response to Samm4545

I am sorry that you totally misconstrued my commentary on what I perceive to be the core target audience of Broke Straight Boys I am not speaking from any inside knowledge of the adult porn industry but from my own experience as having been a member here for several years, and from reading posts from the former director on the site, David, whenever the subject of more racial diversity on the site was addressed. And I would have to assume that sites such as this have market research teams, and have much more accurate ways of accessing the wants and desires of it's audience than reading posts on this forum, or going by the member voting on scenes.

You are certainly as entitled to your opinions as I am mine, as we both are paying members here and have an equal right to express ourselves. My objection is when you are commenting on my post, and saying that my motives are "sucking up and trying to sweet talk the owner", and that as I don't have documented empirical evidence to support my theory make my opinions and theories "just ignorant". I find those comments offensive.

I stand by my comments that if a person's innate sexual desires lean towards a particular type, be it a specific gender, body type, age group or ethnicity, I don't believe it is fair or accurate to characterize that person as being racist, prejudiced and certainly not ignorant.

I had a Caucasian friend named Jimmy who lived in New York during the early eighties. His favorite sexual activity was going to straight porn theatres in the Times Square section of Manhattan, and to give blow jobs to straight black men. He would also invite some of them back to his apartment and pay them to fuck him. He would often tell me that other white guys did not turn him on, and he only wanted "black cock". I have another straight Caucasian friend named Kenny, who is only interested in Asian women, and does not date anyone from other ethic groups.

I admire and applaud those people who are diverse in their sexual desires, and date and have sex with men, women, young, old, smooth, hairy, muscular, thin, and of every religion, ethnicity or mix of ethnicities on God's good earth. But many of us are attracted to only one sex, and have a particular type that get our "motors running". It is not something that we can consciously control, and I would hope that folks who are bisexual or trisexual, or who are wired differently would be non-judgmental towards those who have different desires than your own.

As a person who speaks of championing equality, I only wish that you would be more understanding, and cognizant that human being's sexual desires run the gamut of varieties, and that if a particular individual has a specific "type" that turns them on, that is okay too, and certainly does not make that individual in any way, "ignorant". There is a huge difference between sexually attracted to "a type" and being prejudiced, racist, or ignorant.

This is a forum, and forum by definition means, "A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website."

I am a total advocate of equality and free speech, and I feel that everyone is entitled to speak freely and openly on this forum, as long as that person is not being derogatory, and I think that this discussion is a very healthy one, and should not be swept up under the carpet. I believe that we should all be tolerant of other folk's sexual desires, even if they do not coincide with our own.
 
Wow...Just wow.

I'm glad to see that this thread has somewhat resolved itself. At least I hope so. But before anyone posts anything else, I would ask that you take a few moments and carefully consider what you say. In the meantime, I'm going to make an attempt to shed some light on what I think happened here in the hope that we can prevent it from happening again.

Mistake #1:
Mark makes a well-intentioned, but somewhat misguided attempt to explain the site's lack of minorities. Your mistake, Mark, was your wording. If you had said "So far, all of the models we have found have been too gay for the site. We'll keep looking.", I think you would have been okay. The conversation would have been over. Samm may have throught it was a lame excuse, but that would have been the end of it.

Unfortunately, you added that "I'm not racist.. I have black friends" bit. I openly cringed when I read that and I'm not alone. What you have to understand and remember is that statement has been used for decades to justify all sorts of inequality and to negate racist actions/comments. It usually takes the form "I'm not a racist, but... [insert patently offensive, hurtful and extremely racist statement here.]"

I'm sure that was not your intent here. You meant to emphasize that you weren't excluding minorities on purpose. It just came out wrong. A word to the wise: think before you use that statement again.

Mistake #2:
Mikey attempts to smooth over the situation with business justifications.

Mikey, you're one of my favorite folks on this forum, but you missed the point here entirely. Samm never said that what Mark said was racist. In fact, he was giving him the benefit of the doubt. What he was doing was pointing out how offensive that statement was - and it was. It wasn't intentional, but it was offensive.

You did what you normally do, which is to try to broker peace, and we love you for it. But when you came back and offered all of these business justifications when Samm was simply trying to point out how offensive the remarks were, it came off (again unintentionally) that you were basically doing the same thing.

Mistake #3:
People splitting into factions and trying to defend their "side."

Mark basically misspoke here. This was not a case of Samm overreacting to what Mark said. He was pointing out that what Mark said was unintentionally offensive. From there, we had people misunderstand and then everything just went to hell in a handbasket.

So where are we? Well, let's just say at this point that the site could use a little more color. Many folks would welcome it. Mark, it would be great if you (or your team) put in a little extra effort to make that happen. Just watch what you say because it's a tough topic.

Johnny
 
I'm not overreacting at all. You can't see me, hear me, see my body language or somehow know my tone or inflection. I've not just responded to Mark but to others. Why is it if I state my points it's overreacting, and everyone else states theres and it's justified? I post when I have time, so sometimes that means I post a lot at once. Judge not lest you be judged as well......

And I never called the guy racists, and READ before you post because I mentioned Broke Straight Boys 1 minority models. The fact that you've rushed to say I've called him racists seems like you're the one overreacting, not me.

I'm not here to attack anyone nor have I. I just love when people can't find plausible things to say in a post on here, it resorts to them attacking others. I feel no need to apologize for any of my post b/c it's my opinion and my opinion is valid. I responded to Jason to show some incorrect things that were said, being that I know the industry almost first hand from a LOT of friend who have been on very popular sites.

Thanks for your sarcasm Tjgoldstein73, such a sad response.


Wow. Samm gets 20 internet points for overreacting. Don't worry Mark, there was nothing you said that was wrong.

Whoops.. I mean.. how racist of you to have had minority models on BSB1 and BSB2.. and really, what on earth were you thinking of when you had both a black and deaf model back three times?!?!?!

Sheesh, talk about a whitewash!
 
Johnny,

You are so much better with words than I am. Thank you for saying what you said. You captured my intent VERY well. Thank you so much!

I'm glad to see that this thread has somewhat resolved itself. At least I hope so. But before anyone posts anything else, I would ask that you take a few moments and carefully consider what you say. In the meantime, I'm going to make an attempt to shed some light on what I think happened here in the hope that we can prevent it from happening again.

Mistake #1:
Mark makes a well-intentioned, but somewhat misguided attempt to explain the site's lack of minorities. Your mistake, Mark, was your wording. If you had said "So far, all of the models we have found have been too gay for the site. We'll keep looking.", I think you would have been okay. The conversation would have been over. Samm may have throught it was a lame excuse, but that would have been the end of it.

Unfortunately, you added that "I'm not racist.. I have black friends" bit. I openly cringed when I read that and I'm not alone. What you have to understand and remember is that statement has been used for decades to justify all sorts of inequality and to negate racist actions/comments. It usually takes the form "I'm not a racist, but... [insert patently offensive, hurtful and extremely racist statement here.]"

I'm sure that was not your intent here. You meant to emphasize that you weren't excluding minorities on purpose. It just came out wrong. A word to the wise: think before you use that statement again.

Mistake #2:
Mikey attempts to smooth over the situation with business justifications.

Mikey, you're one of my favorite folks on this forum, but you missed the point here entirely. Samm never said that what Mark said was racist. In fact, he was giving him the benefit of the doubt. What he was doing was pointing out how offensive that statement was - and it was. It wasn't intentional, but it was offensive.

You did what you normally do, which is to try to broker peace, and we love you for it. But when you came back and offered all of these business justifications when Samm was simply trying to point out how offensive the remarks were, it came off (again unintentionally) that you were basically doing the same thing.

Mistake #3:
People splitting into factions and trying to defend their "side."

Mark basically misspoke here. This was not a case of Samm overreacting to what Mark said. He was pointing out that what Mark said was unintentionally offensive. From there, we had people misunderstand and then everything just went to hell in a handbasket.

So where are we? Well, let's just say at this point that the site could use a little more color. Many folks would welcome it. Mark, it would be great if you (or your team) put in a little extra effort to make that happen. Just watch what you say because it's a tough topic.

Johnny
 
Samm,

I've read what Mark said over and over... nothing about it is ignorant. Unfortunately, some people just like to read 'ignorance' into anything. I'm glad you liked my sarcasm, it comes to me naturally, like a gift from the heavens.
 
Look up the word ignorant...by his own admission he didn't think before he spoke..........
 
Mistake #2:
Mikey attempts to smooth over the situation with business justifications.

Mikey, you're one of my favorite folks on this forum, but you missed the point here entirely. Samm never said that what Mark said was racist. In fact, he was giving him the benefit of the doubt. What he was doing was pointing out how offensive that statement was - and it was. It wasn't intentional, but it was offensive.

You did what you normally do, which is to try to broker peace, and we love you for it. But when you came back and offered all of these business justifications when Samm was simply trying to point out how offensive the remarks were, it came off (again unintentionally) that you were basically doing the same thing.
Thank you Johnny, for your very kind words regarding my posts on the forum. I do try to be as honest as possible, always expressing my ideas and opinions, while trying not to offend others who may disagree with me.

However, apparently I was not clear in my commentary that I was replying to Samm's Post #13 on this thread, from April 4. This was before Mark replied using his unfortunate choice of words, saying that he has "quite a few friends who aren't white". In no way was I justifying or defending that comment.

My support for Mark and his hiring practices on the site were based on the fact that I truly and sincerely believe that it is purely a business decision, and does not have any sociological implications. I will say again that there are many gay porn sites that only feature black men. When I used to buy monthly porn magazines, I recall seeing "Black Inches" in the porn shops, which featured no Asian or Caucasian models. I didn't consider that wrong either. There are sites that only feature Asian men, others with "bears", (hairy beefy guys), other's that specialize in muscular body builder types, and others with only transsexual's. This is the nature of the porn business. Each site or periodical appeals to a particular niche audience that is looking for a particular type.

I agree that more diversity here would be welcome, as long as the models fit into the basic niche of being young, masculine, believably straight types, but I certainly see no motivation on Blu's part in their hiring practices, other than to keep their customer's satisfied, and to be as successful as possible. This is still, at the end of a day, a business, and every business's ultimate goal is to be as profitable as possible.

This countries economic system is based on free enterprise, and ultimately all of our goal's in life, are to earn a good living, and to make a good life for ourselves and our families and loved one's. I hope that I have clearly explained my comment's that my defense was of the site in general, and not a particular statement using an unfortunate choice of words.
 
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