Any more Zander

[nobelegg]

Oh Nobelegg, I do "lick" you but remember, "labels are for clothes, not people." As well, being right, doesn't always mean you get the "sweets." Just sayin'

Gay is not a label; it is a lifestyle, Ms. Beth.

 

[juanjo]

Gay is not a label; it is a lifestyle, Ms. Beth.

I disagree sir. Gay is gay. All too often people like to label people who are open as "gay" as opposed to people who are not open about their sexuality. Sometimes they label people who are effeminate as "gay" or people who are active in the club scene as "gay". The fact is that a person who is primarily attracted to members of the same gender is defined as gay in our society. That is not true in other societies, something I learned to my amazement while living in Micronesia where "straight" boys thought nothing of having sex with "gay" boys if they were horny and did not have a girlfriend. In fact on Saipan back in the 70's there was one "gay" guy who was referred to as the sex education program for the island by the local folks because he provided the first sexual experience for most of the teenaged boys. In Mexico and Central America as well I have heard "straight" guys boast about how they are so sexually attractive that not only women but gay men cannot resist their charms.

But back to the USA - often the opponents of the gay community attempt to define "gay" as referring to effeminate men who are involved in a highly hedonistic lifestyle where one simply jumps from bed to bed, usually doing drugs and behaving in an excessively obnoxious and flamboyant fashion. Living in San Francisco for 34 years I can tell you that there are some gay men who are like that but the vast majority are just regular folks who go to work every day, are involved in a variety of social, religious and political activities often not at all associated with the "gay" community as such. They live lives not all that different from heterosexuals of their same age group and if you ask them if they are gay they will tell you that they are gay.

When I was in college I had a friend who was slight in build and long haired which made him look a lot like a woman from a distance. He was completely heterosexual and was often frustrated because people assumed he was "gay" based upon some physical characteristics they always associated with gay men. So I do not know what Zander Floyd's actual sexual identity is and indeed he may not have worked out completely where he fits in on the sexual continuum but I am not going to assume he is gay and label him as such simply because he may or may not have some characteristics some people associate with being gay.

As a teenager while my father was still in Navy we often lived near bases including on Guam or in San Diego, bases full of marines. I discovered at an early age that there was a lot of sex going on at locations both on base and locations nearby off base. I would never have described any of the marines or sailors I had sex with as being effeminate, to the opposite they were often extreme masculine in appearance and manner. I have been in a relationship with a man since 1989 and if you saw either of us you would not immediately assume either of us were gay until we introduced ourselves as a couple. Neither of us are effeminate and likewise we are not on the opposite end of that spectrum in that we are not into leather or other such things either. We simply are who we are. And lots of gay people are very similar. They do not walk around in pink tights with rainbow banners, screaming "I'm gay". But at work they have pictures of their partners at their workstation just like their straight counterparts. At company functions where one's partners are invited they bring their partners. When people are speaking of what they did over the weekend while eating lunch with workmates they share along with their straight workmates. That is the "gay life style".

And in truth, if some extremist regime every took over the country and decided to exterminate all gay people they would not discriminate between the effeminate men and "mannish" women as opposed to those who pass or are in the closet. Everyone would be sent to the camps.

 

[nobelegg]

I disagree sir. Gay is gay. All too often people like to label people who are open as "gay" as opposed to people who are not open about their sexuality. Sometimes they label people who are effeminate as "gay" or people who are active in the club scene as "gay". The fact is that a person who is primarily attracted to members of the same gender is defined as gay in our society. That is not true in other societies, something I learned to my amazement while living in Micronesia where "straight" boys thought nothing of having sex with "gay" boys if they were horny and did not have a girlfriend. In fact on Saipan back in the 70's there was one "gay" guy who was referred to as the sex education program for the island by the local folks because he provided the first sexual experience for most of the teenaged boys. In Mexico and Central America as well I have heard "straight" guys boast about how they are so sexually attractive that not only women but gay men cannot resist their charms.

But back to the USA - often the opponents of the gay community attempt to define "gay" as referring to effeminate men who are involved in a highly hedonistic lifestyle where one simply jumps from bed to bed, usually doing drugs and behaving in an excessively obnoxious and flamboyant fashion. Living in San Francisco for 34 years I can tell you that there are some gay men who are like that but the vast majority are just regular folks who go to work every day, are involved in a variety of social, religious and political activities often not at all associated with the "gay" community as such. They live lives not all that different from heterosexuals of their same age group and if you ask them if they are gay they will tell you that they are gay.

When I was in college I had a friend who was slight in build and long haired which made him look a lot like a woman from a distance. He was completely heterosexual and was often frustrated because people assumed he was "gay" based upon some physical characteristics they always associated with gay men. So I do not know what Zander Floyd's actual sexual identity is and indeed he may not have worked out completely where he fits in on the sexual continuum but I am not going to assume he is gay and label him as such simply because he may or may not have some characteristics some people associate with being gay.

As a teenager while my father was still in Navy we often lived near bases including on Guam or in San Diego, bases full of marines. I discovered at an early age that there was a lot of sex going on at locations both on base and locations nearby off base. I would never have described any of the marines or sailors I had sex with as being effeminate, to the opposite they were often extreme masculine in appearance and manner. I have been in a relationship with a man since 1989 and if you saw either of us you would not immediately assume either of us were gay until we introduced ourselves as a couple. Neither of us are effeminate and likewise we are not on the opposite end of that spectrum in that we are not into leather or other such things either. We simply are who we are. And lots of gay people are very similar. They do not walk around in pink tights with rainbow banners, screaming "I'm gay". But at work they have pictures of their partners at their workstation just like their straight counterparts. At company functions where one's partners are invited they bring their partners. When people are speaking of what they did over the weekend while eating lunch with workmates they share along with their straight workmates. That is the "gay life style".

And in truth, if some extremist regime every took over the country and decided to exterminate all gay people they would not discriminate between the effeminate men and "mannish" women as opposed to those who pass or are in the closet. Everyone would be sent to the camps.

I certainly applaud your POV and agree to disagree in that long before the term "gay" became something of a societal enigma, there was a much more derogatory word I myself was called throughout junior high (starting in 1967) and at times can still be heard emanating from the mouths of the purposely ignorant - QUEER. When someone was QUEER and had an affectionate eye toward another of the same gender (it mattered not, male or female), said target of that QUEER's affection was tacitly called - not labeled - QUEER BAIT. For such reasons, I (as I cannot rightfully speak for anyone else; such an endeavour would prove to be pure folly) felt lower than my peer caste. My self-esteem was damaged to where I have diligently struggled all my life to come to terms with my first being QUEER one day, GAY the next, and who knows what we shall call ourselves tomorrow!?

I am happy with my life. I married the woman of my dreams and remained extremely and deliberately faithful to her, had a son who passed away at eight months, lost my beloved wife almost seven years ago, and endured the hardship of having my gay godson murdered, undoubtedly because of what he was and not who he was.

The ever-present argument, I suppose, is whether my gay tendencies were innate from birth, or whether they were behaviours taught me when I was persistently sexually accosted by staff and student alike in the Indiana state children's home/institution in which I spent fifteen of almost my first eighteen years of existence. Granted, I lived a partitioned youth (I was never a child, nor was I ever allowed to be) with the girls on one side of the campus and boys on the far other side. I question this since there were many other boys who spent most of their early existence in said facility, but were not sexually abused, nor did they turn out QUEER. Along this same line, there were other boys who were sexually abused, but did not end up QUEER. It reminds me of the advert on telly where a kid asked Mr. Owl how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop. The owl answers three, but the voice-over announcer said, "The world may never know." Perhaps the issue is not as relevant as we want it to be, as we make it out to be, or as we prefer to use it as something of a crutch to help us personally cope with our being QUEER/Gay.

No matter what, I believe had I been reared in a different environ, I would have had different choices to make, different situations that would not have affected - even challenged - my own sexual identity. Today, I put those challenges behind me, where they belong. I am me, and unless I am performing on-stage or before a rolling camera, I am no one else. I am happy with who and what I am, even though I look for personal improvements in every facet of my life. I am gay, but I am certainly not QUEER. And anyone who says I am can suck my...you get the idea!

 

[juanjo]

This discussion has wandered a bit off its original course as can happen but I did want to address a few of your comments.

Each of us has had some very specific experiences in our lives to which we have adapted and made choices based upon. Time may indicate to us that some of these choices were not as efficacious as others might of been but at the time we made those choices it seemed to be the right thing to do. I will not judge the choices you made in your life because I am not the person to do that.

I too recall the day when calling people queer was a negative thing and I still have a negative reaction when someone uses that term or the word gay in a negative fashion. I also react negatively to people who use certain racial terms or other terms to apply to certain religious or ethnic groups. I have been known to call people on their use of these terms although I do so in a polite fashion since my purpose is to correct the behavior not to cause the person to become defensive.

Research into sexuality indicates that human sexuality is much more of a spectrum than it is a gay or straight dichotomy. I know that there is a lot of experimentation that goes on when one is younger before one decides where one fits in on the continuum and sometimes people decide they are not happy with the choices they made earlier. I am certainly happy as a gay man. I have no sexual interest in women although I have many close friends who are women. I made certain decisions at a younger age with which I am content. Others made different choices.

Back to the issue at question - I do not make any judgments concerning the sexuality of any of the models here. It is of no concern to me how "gay" or how "straight" they are compared to other models or others in the general population. That is a decision they must make for themselves and to impose a label on them based upon the limited interaction we have with them is just as unfair and improper as those who when I was in junior high and high school went around calling someone a queer or a fag based upon similar subjective considerations.

 

[mikeyank]

This discussion has wandered a bit off its original course as can happen but I did want to address a few of your comments.

Each of us has had some very specific experiences in our lives to which we have adapted and made choices based upon. Time may indicate to us that some of these choices were not as efficacious as others might of been but at the time we made those choices it seemed to be the right thing to do. I will not judge the choices you made in your life because I am not the person to do that.

I too recall the day when calling people queer was a negative thing and I still have a negative reaction when someone uses that term or the word gay in a negative fashion. I also react negatively to people who use certain racial terms or other terms to apply to certain religious or ethnic groups. I have been known to call people on their use of these terms although I do so in a polite fashion since my purpose is to correct the behavior not to cause the person to become defensive.

Research into sexuality indicates that human sexuality is much more of a spectrum than it is a gay or straight dichotomy. I know that there is a lot of experimentation that goes on when one is younger before one decides where one fits in on the continuum and sometimes people decide they are not happy with the choices they made earlier. I am certainly happy as a gay man. I have no sexual interest in women although I have many close friends who are women. I made certain decisions at a younger age with which I am content. Others made different choices.

Back to the issue at question - I do not make any judgments concerning the sexuality of any of the models here. It is of no concern to me how "gay" or how "straight" they are compared to other models or others in the general population. That is a decision they must make for themselves and to impose a label on them based upon the limited interaction we have with them is just as unfair and improper as those who when I was in junior high and high school went around calling someone a queer or a fag based upon similar subjective considerations.

I guess that I am taking this discussion even further off of it's original course, but I feel the need to speak for myself and when the subject matter gets to people making their own "choices" as far as sexual identity, I must say that I never made a "choice". I always knew going as far back as my earliest memories that I was attracted to other boys, and while I did believe that it was a phase I was going through, because of what I saw in society around me, in people I knew, television shows and movies that I watched and the books that I read that "normal people" are attracted to the opposite sex, and that I would eventually meet "the girl of my dreams", and that I would marry, have children and live out the life that was portrayed everywhere that I could see in plain sight.

As childhood turned into teenage years, I became aware that there was a sub culture in society called homosexuals, and that, like it or not, I was a part of that culture, but I certainly did not publicize it as there were obvious derogatory connotations associated with being a homosexual, but I knew that was what I was. My point is that I never made a choice, other than to accept what came naturally to me, rather than to try to fight what my God given natural sexual nature is.

Of course there is a wide variance in people and I strongly believe that the Kinsey scale best explains human sexuality, and so for others who have various degrees of homosexuality and heterosexuality within their capacity, perhaps they need to make a choice, although many classify themselves as bisexual, or to use the phrase that our own Jason Matthews made me familiar with to consider themselves pansexuals. But for myself there was never a choice involved, and it was not in any way a "sexual preference" for me, but rather it was a matter of recognition and acceptance of who I am as a human sexual being.

 

[johnny]

mikeyank and juanjo

I guess that I am taking this discussion even further off of it's original course, but I feel the need to speak for myself and when the subject matter gets to people making their own "choices" as far as sexual identity, I must say that I never made a "choice". I always knew going as far back as my earliest memories that I was attracted to other boys, and while I did believe that it was a phase I was going through, because of what I saw in society around me, in people I knew, television shows and movies that I watched and the books that I read that "normal people" are attracted to the opposite sex, and that I would eventually meet "the girl of my dreams", and that I would marry, have children and live out the life that was portrayed everywhere that I could see in plain sight.

As childhood turned into teenage years, I became aware that there was a sub culture in society called homosexuals, and that, like it or not, I was a part of that culture, but I certainly did not publicize it as there were obvious derogatory connotations associated with being a homosexual, but I knew that was what I was. My point is that I never made a choice, other than to accept what came naturally to me, rather than to try to fight what my God given natural sexual nature is.

Of course there is a wide variance in people and I strongly believe that the Kinsey scale best explains human sexuality, and so for others who have various degrees of homosexuality and heterosexuality within their capacity, perhaps they need to make a choice, although many classify themselves as bisexual, or to use the phrase that our own Jason Matthews made me familiar with to consider themselves pansexuals. But for myself there was never a choice involved, and it was not in any way a "sexual preference" for me, but rather it was a matter of recognition and acceptance of who I am as a human sexual being.

Dear mikeyank and juanjo
I just want to say. I Love how you both write. It is a gift..
Both of you keep writing. So I can keep reading and learning.
Thank you guy's.
Always just been gay myself never had to think about it much. Just born that way.
Lot of respect.
xo Johnny

 

[mikeyank]

Dear mikeyank and juanjo
I just want to say. I Love how you both write. It is a gift..
Both of you keep writing. So I can keep reading and learning.
Thank you guy's.
Always just been gay myself never had to think about it much. Just born that way.
Lot of respect.
xo Johnny

Thank you Johnny. I discovered that this forum gives me a place to express myself on some subjects that I don't discuss with people, on a regular basis. I enjoy reading what you post as well. We all have our own style of writing or communicating, and I always understand the point you're making, and you're not afraid to express your opinions, even when they may not agree with he majority. I would encourage you to please keep writing too!

As far as being born gay, so was I, and even though I thought it might be a phase, I always really knew that boys and young men turned me on as a kid and not girls and women.

 

[nobelegg]

I guess that I am taking this discussion even further off of it's original course, but I feel the need to speak for myself and when the subject matter gets to people making their own "choices" as far as sexual identity, I must say that I never made a "choice". I always knew going as far back as my earliest memories that I was attracted to other boys, and while I did believe that it was a phase I was going through, because of what I saw in society around me, in people I knew, television shows and movies that I watched and the books that I read that "normal people" are attracted to the opposite sex, and that I would eventually meet "the girl of my dreams", and that I would marry, have children and live out the life that was portrayed everywhere that I could see in plain sight.

As childhood turned into teenage years, I became aware that there was a sub culture in society called homosexuals, and that, like it or not, I was a part of that culture, but I certainly did not publicize it as there were obvious derogatory connotations associated with being a homosexual, but I knew that was what I was. My point is that I never made a choice, other than to accept what came naturally to me, rather than to try to fight what my God given natural sexual nature is.

Of course there is a wide variance in people and I strongly believe that the Kinsey scale best explains human sexuality, and so for others who have various degrees of homosexuality and heterosexuality within their capacity, perhaps they need to make a choice, although many classify themselves as bisexual, or to use the phrase that our own Jason Matthews made me familiar with to consider themselves pansexuals. But for myself there was never a choice involved, and it was not in any way a "sexual preference" for me, but rather it was a matter of recognition and acceptance of who I am as a human sexual being.

There clearly is no definitive conclusion to this subject matter, and no educational study can evoke nothing concrete in any direction or capacity.
One can say he recognized it at an early age and, while he did not fully comprehend it, he may very well have nurtured it throughout his upbringing. He would be right in saying this, as it worked for him.
Another could say it was the environs during his youth and others connected to it that influenced him into being gay. No one can deny him this, either.
Another could combine innate urges with environmental temptations and availability. He, too, could not be denied.
I do not speak for Mikeyani, Juanjo, Johnny, or anyone else on here; that would be most imprudent. I can only speak for myself, and anyone who attempts to deny me my conviction would be judgmentally errant and purposely obtuse. I was not born gay; I did not have gay (or QUEER) tendencies while growing up. When I first learned of the physiological differences between males and females, a quick glance down to my groin told me with absolute affirmation I am a male first. But when I would up being repeatedly sexually abused by staff and student alike in the facility which had charge over my upbringing (and said abuse was not limited by one particular gender), I sensed the unnaturalness swelling within me, even to the point where I abhorred myself so much, I attempted suicide by age 13. I was unable to cope with what had been done to me, and what I had become because of it.
Do I BLAME my past for my being gay? Not on your life. As I learned to uphold myself with action and responsibility, I made the cognizant choice to adhere to the gay lifestyle EXCEPT during my blissful married life. A saddened widower now (Wednesday, 3/12, shall make a full seven years), I choose to be myself, to be gay, and to be the best I can be at life as a whole, and not life as a hole. The difference here is CHOICE, and I hold myself completely accountable to every choice I make, proper or improper. Gay cannot be deemed proper or improper; nor should it be judged with bias and ignorance.
End of story.

 

[mikeyank]

I believe that the variations in human sexuality are endless, and if you Nobelegg are gay entirely by your own choice, then I apologize for my generalities regarding sexuality. It has been my experience through reading, observing and in fact personal experience in being close to some men who were in the mid range on the Kinsey scale, but they felt that the easiest course of action was to try to "go straight" to fit in with the norm, but they also had urges to be with men as well, and most of the men I knew would cheat on their girls or wives to fulfill the urges.

So in fact you are indeed the exception that makes the rule in having made an actual sexual "choice" or "preference", as opposed to reacting to an innate orientation. It is interesting to live and learn.

 

[johnny]

When I was in maybe about 6 or 7 a very long time ago.There was a show on TV called Adventures in Paradise with and actor
called Gardner Mckay ?? Not sure if I spelled his name right .He was a captain of a boat that had Adventures in paradise.
I would never miss that show.He wore these great shorts on his boat.And always had a huge bulge in his pants. And I thought
he was the most beautiful man I had ever seen. A hard on at six I knew there was something different then. Never forgot that
man.LOL This all just brought up a good memory. Maybe I will watch a little HSBoys.HA HA.
Johnny

 

[johnny]

mikeyank
Take back what I said in my PM.I am going to keep posting.Fuck it.
xo Johnny

 

[mikeyank]

When I was in maybe about 6 or 7 a very long time ago.There was a show on TV called Adventures in Paradise with and actor
called Gardner Mckay ?? Not sure if I spelled his name right .He was a captain of a boat that had Adventures in paradise.
I would never miss that show.He wore these great shorts on his boat.And always had a huge bulge in his pants. And I thought
he was the most beautiful man I had ever seen. A hard on at six I knew there was something different then. Never forgot that
man.LOL This all just brought up a good memory. Maybe I will watch a little HSBoys.HA HA.
Johnny

I didn't watch the show, but I used my search and found out that his name is Gardner McKay as Adam Troy, and from these pictures I found, I would've had a hardon at 6 or 7 too from this man!

 

[mikeyank]

mikeyank
Take back what I said in my PM.I am going to keep posting.Fuck it.
xo Johnny

Good deal Johnny. The more folks who post here make this a more interesting fun place to hang out!

 

[tampa24]

mikeyank
Take back what I said in my PM.I am going to keep posting.Fuck it.
xo Johnny

Good deal Johnny. The more folks who post here make this a more interesting fun place to hang out!

I'm so glad you are sticking around Johnny. Please don't stop posting.

 

[tampa24]

When I was in maybe about 6 or 7 a very long time ago.There was a show on TV called Adventures in Paradise with and actor called Gardner Mckay ?? Not sure if I spelled his name right .He was a captain of a boat that had Adventures in paradise. I would never miss that show.He wore these great shorts on his boat.And always had a huge bulge in his pants. And I thought he was the most beautiful man I had ever seen. A hard on at six I knew there was something different then. Never forgot that man.LOL This all just brought up a good memory. Maybe I will watch a little HSBoys.HA HA.
Johnny

For me it was Tarzan. With Ron Ely. haha

 

[nobelegg]

mikeyank
Take back what I said in my PM.I am going to keep posting.Fuck it.
xo Johnny

Disappointed, Johnny, you considered desisting from commenting on the forum. Pickled tink you opted to continue.
As if it matters, when I was a youth, Burt Ward had my lustful attention. Gosh yes, Bruce!

 

[mikeyank]

Disappointed, Johnny, you considered desisting from commenting on the forum. Pickled tink you opted to continue.
As if it matters, when I was a youth, Burt Ward had my lustful attention. Gosh yes, Bruce!

I was also a big "Robin" fan, aka Dick Grayson, (nice name "Dick") and even as a teen, I wondered about the relationship between Bruce Wayne and his young ward, Dick Grayson?????

And I'm glad to see it's unanimous that the forum has spoken, and we ALL want Johnny to remain active on the forum!!!

 

[nobelegg]

I was also a big "Robin" fan, aka Dick Grayson, (nice name "Dick") and even as a teen, I wondered about the relationship between Bruce Wayne and his young ward, Dick Grayson?????

And I'm glad to see it's unanimous that the forum has spoken, and we ALL want Johnny to remain active on the forum!!!

Good PM, Mikeyank. I trust your Friday finds you well and ever pleasant.
This forum would hardly be the same without Johnny. I know I have the minute tendency to get under someone's skin by what I say and the way I say it, but that never means I wish anyone discomfort emanating from me.
Anyway, I PMed you, so if you want, check it out.
Cheers (and Tanaka gave up a homer yesterday in his first Spring Training start. Welcome to the Majors, Tanaka-sahn.) GO REDS!
Jack

 

[johnny]

Thank You All.My Heart Is full....
Johnny......

 

[nobelegg]

Thank You All.My Heart Is full....
Johnny......

Johnny, in every way, YOU ARE WELCOME.
Now, close your eyes, click your heels together three times, and think to yourself...