The Economy, Taxes and Churches

[Frontier]

With the present state of our economy, Medicare, social security, and the search for additional tax revenue has anyone every asked why we don’t tax “churches”. I’ll be blunt I hate all religion but believe in God. My decision to believe in a higher being is not logical but faith based and my personal decision. My hatred of religion I believe is based on my opinion that man made religions do nothing but cause prejudice, hypocrisy, hate, war and greed using the threat of hell for those who don’t practice the religions teachings and tithe 10% (of your gross income) to the church. Seriously, this is a country supposedly founded on the separation of church and state yet we continue to have “In God We Trust” printed on our money. Think of the dollars that could be generated to offset our national debt if all churches, religions and their holdings were subject to the taxes the rest of us have to pay. St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York City is now in the process of undergoing a 170 million dollar renovation. How much potential tax income is being used on this basically government funded religious project? I would be interested in hearing your opinions in my poll. I would also appreciate it if only US Citizens voted since I’m looking for responses concerning our Government but others please feel free to comment.

Thanks

 

[Phantom]

With the present state of our economy, Medicare, social security, and the search for additional tax revenue has anyone every asked why we don’t tax “churches”. I’ll be blunt I hate all religion but believe in God. My decision to believe in a higher being is not logical but faith based and my personal decision. My hatred of religion I believe is based on my opinion that man made religions do nothing but cause prejudice, hypocrisy, hate, war and greed using the threat of hell for those who don’t practice the religions teachings and tithe 10% (of your gross income) to the church. Seriously, this is a country supposedly founded on the separation of church and state yet we continue to have “In God We Trust” printed on our money. Think of the dollars that could be generated to offset our national debt if all churches, religions and their holdings were subject to the taxes the rest of us have to pay. St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York City is now in the process of undergoing a 170 million dollar renovation. How much potential tax income is being used on this basically government funded religious project? I would be interested in hearing your opinions in my poll. I would also appreciate it if only US Citizens voted since I’m looking for responses concerning our Government but others please feel free to comment.

Thanks

I understand where you are coming from, but the government needs to look at their spending first. They are not responsible with what they have now. What do you think will happen if they get even more money? Theri track record shows that they will most likely spend it unwisely as well. They don't need more money. They need brains.

 

[Buckeye1]

With the present state of our economy, Medicare, social security, and the search for additional tax revenue has anyone every asked why we don’t tax “churches”. I’ll be blunt I hate all religion but believe in God. My decision to believe in a higher being is not logical but faith based and my personal decision. My hatred of religion I believe is based on my opinion that man made religions do nothing but cause prejudice, hypocrisy, hate, war and greed using the threat of hell for those who don’t practice the religions teachings and tithe 10% (of your gross income) to the church. Seriously, this is a country supposedly founded on the separation of church and state yet we continue to have “In God We Trust” printed on our money. Think of the dollars that could be generated to offset our national debt if all churches, religions and their holdings were subject to the taxes the rest of us have to pay. St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York City is now in the process of undergoing a 170 million dollar renovation. How much potential tax income is being used on this basically government funded religious project? I would be interested in hearing your opinions in my poll. I would also appreciate it if only US Citizens voted since I’m looking for responses concerning our Government but others please feel free to comment.

Thanks

I find it interesting that you "believe in God" and you believe in the "separation of church and state", yet you also believe the state should tax the church which goes against your belief in the separation of church and state. Did I misunderstand all of this because it just doesn't add up to me. By the way, I agree with you about "religion". Religion is man made and man is error prone.

I also don't really believe God cares whether the state taxes his church or not. The church leaders do though.

One other thing. I would like to see another choice on your poll. "No Opinion"

This is a very good thread. Thank you.

 

[Buckeye1]

I understand where you are coming from, but the government needs to look at their spending first. They are not responsible with what they have now. What do you think will happen if they get even more money? Theri track record shows that they will most likely spend it unwisely as well. They don't need more money. They need brains.

Those people in power were voted into office by the majority of the American voters. Perhaps the ones in need of brains are the American voters.

 

[Heweyboy]

Tax or spend

Interesting idea. As an outsider (Australian) the US problem seems to be that spending is way out of line with revenue (Taxes). The debate seems to revolve around should Govt spend less or Tax more? Here Govt revenue is around 30% of our GDP (Gross Domestic Product) in the US it is around 9%. We have much greater Govt services in terms of Govt funded healthcare, welfare housing, etc etc etc. The US on the other only provides the most basic of Govt services for its citizens and still has to borrow Trillions from China to pay for it each year. You need to be both taxing a lot more and also spending a lot more on healthcare etc. The glory days of the US economy are all in the past and you are borrowing for a future that does not meet the standards of other western nations. The US has become the White Trailer Trash of the west living on credit cards you cant afford to pay... You need to tipple your tax base and start providing the basics like affordable healthcare, education and housing to your own citizens.

 

[Frontier]

I find it interesting that you "believe in God" and you believe in the "separation of church and state", yet you also believe the state should tax the church which goes against your belief in the separation of church and state. Did I misunderstand all of this because it just doesn't add up to me. By the way, I agree with you about "religion". Religion is man made and man is error prone.

I also don't really believe God cares whether the state taxes his church or not. The church leaders do though.

One other thing. I would like to see another choice on your poll. "No Opinion"

This is a very good thread. Thank you.

I think what I'm saying is that the church is an entity which makes money and owns property and as such has a responsibility to pay taxes like we all do.

 

[Buckeye1]

I think what I'm saying is that the church is an entity which make money and owns property and as such has a responsibility to pay taxes like we all do.

If a church is in the business to make money for gain, then yes, they should pay taxes on that gain. But if the church operates as a non-profit organization, they should be exempt from paying taxes. Believe it or not, a lot of churches do a lot of good work and some are just out to rip people off. Taxing the churches will not turn the economy around.

 

[Phantom]

If a church is in the business to make money for gain, then yes, they should pay taxes on that gain. But if the church operates as a non-profit organization, they should be exempt from paying taxes. Believe it or not, a lot of churches do a lot of good work and some are just out to rip people off. Taxing the churches will not turn the economy around.

Well put, Robb. Let's not punish the inocent along with the guilty. Our government needs to operate on a budget like the rest of us. Let them curb a few of those expensive vacations and stop giving themselves pay raises and more benifits, then come talk to us about more money.

 

[Markymark]

I can't believe I am, so far, the only person to vote yes, maybe because I actually see the work my exempt church does, first hand?

 

[Buckeye1]

I can't believe I am, so far, the only person to vote yes, maybe because I actually see the work my exempt church does, first hand?

Now you're not alone Markymark. I voted yes because I believe most churches do more good than bad (at least the ones I have been associated with).

 

[lovelumps]

If a church is truly "not for profit" and only collects money for the benefit if it's community then it should be tax exempt. I expect that the majority of churches operate within this idea. There are always rule breakers.

I've spent many years working as a volunteer for my neighborhood school and our neighborhood pool. Both not for profit organizations that are completely legit.

I don't readily agree with organized religion but do believe that most churchgoers and their respective churches provide valuable outreach services to their direct communities.

I do recognize that there are many corrupt individuals and organizations. It is sketchy to rely on auditors to find those that abuse the system. However, so many churches are the force behind so much welfare support that if we were to start taxing them, I fear we would sacrifice our collective humanitarian outreach programs in the process.

 

[joninliverton]

I can't believe I am, so far, the only person to vote yes, maybe because I actually see the work my exempt church does, first hand?

Mark, I'm surprised that you voted yes. Even our HRH the Queen of England pays taxes on her earnings these days. Of course if we are referring to the Church income then of course it could be classed as a charity. And most charity organisations over here are either tax exempt or on a very low tax code.

 

[Frontier]

Hey, thanks for responding, those few of you that did. I tried to clarify my position but maybe it was too complicated. I really tried to get my personal point across that religion is bad, I mean really bad. Look at the position of the Salivation Army concerning gays, look at the Baptists, the Catholics, the Muslims, the Orthodox Jews and I could go on and on. Sorry, those of you who really believe that any religion is good are wrong. ANY major religion damns all of us to hell, your individual support is your personal decision but in my opinion support any church and your looking to get fucked in the end. Those of you who wish to gather as a brothership of sistership very cool, don't call it a religion

 

[joninliverton]

From this and your presidential post, it is quite clear you're not a religeous guy and, tbh neither am I, although I am no atheist. I was christened in the church of england as a baby and confirmed at 16. I did not want to be confirmed but I was kinda forced to by my parents as it was the in thing to do.

Fortunately, the UK is not as a God fearing nation as the US, so the voting public don't really put the ideas of the church in their head. Any person who is up for election, should be impartial and not have the backing of a group of homophobic or any other haters.

 

[juanjo]

It's been a while since I posted here. I've been away doing this and that and let my membership lapse. But as an attorney I do have a few comments on this thread. First separation of church and state does not require that churches NOT pay taxes. That is a construct put into place by the government over 200 years ago and upheld by the Supreme Court as a legitimate exercise of government power under the constitution. It may surprise you to know that churches ARE required to pay taxes on non-clergy employees in their various enterprises and their employees including clergy are required to report income and pay taxes. So could we tax church income? Of course we could. Will we? Not likely.

When it comes to income into the government there are various gobbets that get tossed around about wasteful spending. And there is no doubt that on occasion different agencies do waste money either intentionally because the system is set up to encourage it or accidentally due to unforeseen circumstances. Still the amounts wasted are miniscule compared to the amounts tossed around elsewhere. Someone mentioned government employees getting raises - most federal employees have not seen a raise other than cost of living for some time. In addition the rates of compensation for government employees lag behind those of similar categories of employees in the private sector. The tradeoff always was in public employment once hired you could only be fired for cause and upon retirement you had a good pension - around 60% of your last 5 years income. That is not as true as it once was.

The real issue in the disparity between income and outlay in the US comes from a simple issue. We spend far more than we take in. Since Eisenhower was president when corporate taxes were far higher as well as taxes on the top 5%, taxes for those categories have fallen to one third of their prior rates at their highest rates. Reagan and Bush I & II pushed through tax cuts for the wealthiest corporations and individuals with the justification that the freed up income would then be invested in the economy. It was true they did make investments - virtually all of it overseas. In addition the effective rates shifted as well. It is true that for individuals the top rate is around 33 to 35% but the top 5% do not pay anywhere near this rate. Why you ask? Because of the definition of income. Incomes is ordinary wages and salary not capital gains - the income earned off investments. Depending on the the type of capital gain the tax rate for that is 0%, 5% or 10%. The top 5% of the people in this country make the majority of their income off investments NOT ordinary income. When Romney paid an effective tax rate of 11% last year this is because a significant part of his income was in capital gains not regular income. He actually paid more than most in his tax bracket. Some pay none at all which is also true of many of the largest and most profitable corporations on the Fortune 500 list.

So what has happened is that we have shifted the tax burden from the upper class and corporation onto the middle class. Now in gross amounts the top 10% and the corporation still pay a huge amount in taxes but as a percentage of their actual incomes [as opposed to ordinary income] it is much lower. For the middle class and working class the amounts of tax have dropped but in a much smaller amount while they are now paying higher taxes in the form of use fees, sales tax etc than they ever did. The reason is that government costs which were once paid out of the general fund through income tax are now paid through the form of fees at service, and local & state sales taxes etc. So for example, the average person according to the government bean counters spends around 3000.00 for food a year. If you are making 25,000.00 a year and paying 8% sales tax on food which is the case in some states your average yearly cost for food as a percentage of income is much higher than say the guy making 250,000.00 a year. Make sense?

Now on the expenditure side our friends in Washington love to do pie charts including ones which show Social Security and Medicare as roughly 33% of the budget. This is misleading because the actual fact is that they are including in that budget section money specifically earmarked for the those two programs that they have "borrowed" and used for other purposes. In reality the biggest share of the pie goes to the military - roughly 70 to 75% when you include things like research and development, debt servicing for the money borrowed to fight wars, black operations, VA, medical, pensions and actual out lays for men and material. We spend more on the military than the top 35 countries who come after us on military spending.

So the reality is that if you want to bring the budget back into balance, increase the tax burden on the top 5% and large corporations to a rate closer to what it was in the 1950"s [ a time of incredible prosperity in this country] and reduce actual expenditures for military.

 

[Frontier]

Thank you for an excellent article. I should have made it clear that I was talking about churches as a business and not employees who of course are taxed like the rest of us. Thanks again.

 

[SGVBOB]

Before I get pounded on......

This is what the Founding Fathers set up the Bill of Rights to include such occurences (should) never happen...taxation of churches.....whether this is NOW included in "Separation of Church/aka religion, and the things that accompany it, churches/synagogues, temples, etc.