Persecution, liberation, and the collapse of gay culture. . .

[Ambivalent]

Hmmm. . . .

Perhaps I am just in a terribly pessimistic mood this weekend, but, I have an apprehension, which I wonder if any other older members, share. . . .???

When I was young, though outright persecution of gay people had mostly ended in Canada - there was still a rather embarrassed silence, in polite society, about such things. And there was a lingering sense, in the gay community, that we were still "outsiders", and "outcasts": and this fostered a certain sense of solidarity.

I saw this at work when I visited Eastern Europe, a number of years ago. At the "Club Angel", on a little cobbled sidestreet, in Tallinn, gay people thronged together - young and old, thin and fat, gay men and lesbians (and their straight friends, too), beautiful people and not-so-beautiful people: all hugging and kissing and dancing and laughing, and having FUN. . . aware that their congregating in such fashion was legal, but only recently, and barely, so. . . and caring for one another in a spirit of MUTUAL PROTECTION.

It's been a long time since any gay club in North America has been like that, I think. The advance of human liberty has been considerable, over the last several decades - and that's a good thing. Gay people are now welcome to hold hands and KISS, in any public place they like. Gay people can marry, and adopt and raise children - which is, of course, wonderful.

But, I think something has been lost. The old spirit of solidarity and community feeling - borne of facing a common adversary, and an almost universal hostility - has gone. Now, being gay is "normal" - which is good. BUT - when gay people gather, there isn't the same sort of generosity and fellow-feeling as there used to be, I'd say. Gay life in North America is now (I think) like regular, ordinary life.

It seems to me that young gay men in North American clubs today, are very much like their young straight counterparts - like fratboys - with little interest in or respect for elders whom (in previous generations) they might have accounted mentors. Instead, they are just on the make (always) for the cutest, youngest, prettiest, and fastest hookup they can get. And have no time for even polite or perfunctory conversation. And the older guys are kind of cynical, lost, and abandoned, in clubs - drinking and watching the shows on-stage, but expecting nothing: not even a bright sliver of conversation: unless, of course, they pay for it.

What bothers me even more is, that, when I was in my teens, gay men were the great guardians and cognoscenti of great literature and classical music (especially opera), and sculpture and painting, and all the fine and exquisite things in life. I fear that that great era is drawing to a close. Yes, I have some friends in France - including a couple of professors at the Sorbonne - for whom such things are still CRUCIAL: but they are getting on. (Mostly in their 70's and 80's.) *And it might amuse Jon to know that, while I am dating a man 20 years younger than I am, most of my personal FRIENDS, in real life (at least the gay ones) are typically 20 years OLDER than I am.* ;-)

It seems to me that many older gay men in North America have lost interest in the fine arts; and that many of the younger ones never had any interest in them, ab initio. Perhaps I am being elitist, cruel, or unfair - - - but this is the way it seems, to me. And it also seems to me that, the "gay community" (even the well-educated part of it), is quickly losing its historic role, as a repository of knowledge about, and appreciation for, BEAUTY in all the arts, and in life, generally. And. . . worst of all . . . is CEASING to BE a community, at all - but is gradually devolving into a rag-tag mass of self-absorbed individuals, who care about nothing beautiful, beyond the next, opportune, tryst.

Perhaps I am being too pessimistic, about all this? Certainly, this board, and the kind and lovely people I've met here, give me hope. But I do wonder whether, with the advent of real liberation, gay men have lost SOMETHING CRUCIAL - particularly, their formerly treasured cultural legacy, and. . . more significantly. . . their compassion and care, for one ANOTHER.

"A".

"Lascia ch'io pianga" ~ Philippe Jaroussky. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpZ5MskYq7A

 

[peterh6308]

For the most part I agree with what your saying Ambi. However I don't agree with your perception that the "gay culture" has turned the other cheek on it's solidarity. Here in Seattle the gay community is thriving in business, gay groups for "everything"lol pride in ones chosen life style and the recognized legal married status. I maybe reading into more then what your saying, but it almost sounds like you miss the brotherhood of the gay community fighting for equal rights we didn't have and now we have them you feel since we have nothing to fight for we lost our brotherhood. I like blending in society! this is what our fore fathers of the 70's and my friends and I all fought for.

 

[BenBen]

One of the greatest and oldest gay bars in Milwaukee was called C'est La Vie. When I first started to there it has already been in business for more than 30 years, it was a little run down and had seen much better days. It was a melting pot of the gay community, it was a place of solidarity and communion. Just about anytime of the day or night you would find a representative of every part of the gay community and from all age groups and everyone got along and talked to each other. At the same time there were dance clubs that were mostly frequented by a younger crowd but older people were certainly welcome and I never felt uncomfortable in there even in my 40s, there was a quiet bar that was mostly older guys who weren't into the noise and excitement of a dance club, there were a coupe of leather bars catering to that community, a couple of lesbian bars and a couple other bars that had more of a neighborhood feel to them where gay and straight mixed together. The Green Bay gay bar scene is pretty similar.

C'est La Vie closed down when the owner died and I really miss the vibe of that place but it's still carried on in other places, it's just a little different. Maybe you can call that progress. In bigger cities there are gay neighborhoods with a lot of gay owned homes. In Milwaukee, Chicago and even Green Bay there are areas of the city that have more gay businesses other than bars. Chicago has Boy's Town which almost seems like it's very own little city which is quite remarkable, there are rainbow flags hanging from flag poles up and down the street. Rainbow flags and banners are proudly displayed in shop windows, there is a real sense of family and pride.

I think a big part of the gay movement was to mainstream and in some places that has been achieved. What more can you ask for than to be treated just like everyone else? I don't see people relaxing and forgetting about their past, I still see people joining together even if gay marriage is legal in there state, it's not recognized by the federal government and it's not legal in all the states in the U.S. I can only speak for the U.S. since it's been a very long time since I've been to Canada.

There are places where gay people segregate themselves, but you see that in the straight community also, like minded people want to hang out with other like minded people but I also see places where everyone comes together. When I was young I did enjoy sitting with the older gay guys and hearing their stories and our history but there were times I wanted to be with younger people not because I had something against older guys. The only real big changes I've seen is that being gay is much more open now and a little more accepted. If you're not finding the solidarity you're looking for then I'd say look in a different place because it's there. Sometimes you have to make an effort to join in.

There are places where I can see 2 guys holding hands but it's still pretty rare and it's only in the big cities. I live in WI and it's a pretty conservative state. I wouldn't say most people are accepting of the gay community, they tolerate it but they don't want to see PDA, they might not say anything to your directly but they wouldn't like it. A lot of people are still in the closet and live double lives. I see something new in our youth. The young people will not go quietly into the night, they are what they are many of them refuse to label themselves as anything but sexual, they might kiss a boy or have sex with a boy so what some of them are out and out gay but a lot of them are just sexual and among their peers they don't care who's gay, straight, bi, trans. This is our future where you can be whatever you are and nobody cares. That's what I always thought we were fighting for and that's my hope for the future, one big melting pot.

 

[louis33705]

Ambi,

Since you asked the question, I would like to respond to your concerns. I concur with what Peter wrote and would like to give you some examples of my then and now experiences as a gay man.

NOW

I am going to make reference to the recent interview we just witnessed with Paul and his family. They no doubt are a loving and caring family. While the initial discovery of Paul's profession was a surprising one to his mother, it was not a travesty to the family. As we saw in the interview, they were not surprised. They were accepting and in support of Paul's decision to be working in a field he was enjoying and comfortable in. They presented to us as being a family with strong moral values. Yet, they also proved that they were not a family of judgemental people. It was revealed that they did come from a strong Catholic background with those moral values that are inherent in righteous people. Moral values has nothing to do with a person's ethnicity, profession, religious affiliation or even sexuality. Moral values is that God given quality we have in each of us to be a person with respect, acceptance and love for each other.

THEN

I was raped when I was eleven years old by one of our parish priests while I was serving as an altar boy. I was threatened that if I told anyone, my parents would be excommunicated from the church for raising a liar. The abuse continued for about a year which left many scars I still carry today.

I survived that period and made it to high school. While there, and by chance I became friends with two other gay class mates. We would hang out at local hang out places and at the beach. We were our own little secret society of queer kids. Occasionally one of us would hook up with another gay person until our little secret society of three started growing into private community of like minded people. We were happy and secure in our sexuality. We supported each other. However, graduation was upon us and it was anticipated we would be going on our separate ways.

I graduated in 1964 during the height of the Viet Nam war. Rather than go to college I enlisted in the Air Force. I was there for three years when one night I felt all alone and in need of someone I could be close with emotionally and sexually. I missed my gay friends. I headed out to a shopping mall which had been rumored as being a pick up point for homosexuals. DAMN if I wasn't arrested for soliciting an undercover cop. My brother drove from Tampa to Orlando to bail me out of jail that night. He did not say a word to me the entire time we were together. I was acquitted from the charges when my attorney proved entrapment. However, the military chose to discharge me.

After my dischange, I got a decent job at a local hospital. During that time I met a young man, fell in love and he moved in with me. He even managed to get a position at the same place where I was working. The people knew of our relationship but referred to us as buddies and roommates. My family also accepted him as my roommate and coworker. We were together eleven years before we broke up. That is a story for a different time.

TODAY

Throughout my life time I have been "outed" so many times, many of which I don't care to remember. Many were by others and the good ones were by my own choice.

The Stonewall riots brought to awareness two major principles. It was a modern fight for gay and lesbian rights in the United States. It was their intention to prove that we could be assimilated into society in a non-confrontational manner.

You talk about the arts, literature and such as being an integral part of gay mainstream. We are a people of more than that. We have come out of the closet and proven to be a people of vast interests. We still have our artists and connisseurs of the great arts. Today, many of our great composers are gay. The list goes on. However, the gay community cannot hold ownership to these things. What we fought for has come to pass, that we could be assimilated into mainstream society. Beyond the arts we have openly gay people in all aspects of our society: actors, performers, major celebrities, military personnel, professional athletes and the list does go on.

Ambi, I am where I wanted to be when I belonged to my little private society of friends back in my youth. I am TODAY an equal member of society and mankind.

Love,
Louis

 

[betudidntknow]

I liked Peter's statement; " I like blending in society". I feel this way too! I grew up during a time when, being different made you vulnerable. The only support you had was a group of like minded people (solidarity). Now, as an adult, my strength comes from within. I am okay with who or what I am. There will always be people who are unaccepting of that but, that's the way it is and will always be! I would rather people recognize me for my abilities or positive contributions to society rather than, sexual orientation, color or anything like that. I just like to blend.

 

[betudidntknow]

I liked Peter's statement; " I like blending in society". I feel this way too! I grew up during a time when, being different made you vulnerable. The only support you had was a group of like minded people (solidarity). Now, as an adult, my strength comes from within. I am okay with who or what I am. There will always be people who are unaccepting of that but, that's the way it is and will always be! I would rather people recognize me for my abilities or positive contributions to society rather than, sexual orientation, color or anything like that. I just like to blend.

Another point that came to me was; all of the organizations I've been part of (including my local NAACP), conveyed to me, the importance of "Empowerment"! Being part of a group of supportive people or having a sense of "brother hood" is only half the battle! I've learned that the rest comes from the individual, or in this case, me!

 

[Ambivalent]

Hey,

Peter, Louis, and Betu ~

Thank you for your marvelous and insightful discourses upon this subject. I really appreciate your reflections and think that you are, for the most part, correct. OF COURSE it is a far, far better thing, to have civil rights and legal status and privileges, than to be part of an oppressed minority. I'm a bit too pessimistic, sometimes: for me, the glass isn't just half-empty: the glass is always cracked, and leaking ;-)

I'm not REALLY nostalgic, for anything. As someone who was born in 1965, and was in high school and university in the '80's - it was kind of a "betwixt-and-between" period, as far as acceptance of gay people, in Canada. At that point, MOST enlightened people were pretty much on the side of accepting gay people, and the drive toward greater legal enfranchisement of gay life had already begun, but: people just didn't talk about it, much. However, it was still possible to be (retrospectively) questioned and/or arrested, for purchasing a gay erotic video, when I was first in university - I don't miss that, at all.

And, I like fitting in, too. (And have pretty much always done so.) I am signally NOT on the side of "queer activists", who think that having the same rights as (or living in the same ways as) heterosexual people, is BAD for us.

And, if I might reconsider or nuance my original post, a little - probably my sadness about the decline of the gay community as a repository of music, literature, and culture generally. . . is more reflective of a GENERAL, generational loss, that has occurred in the gay AND straight communities, contemporaneously. I mourn. . . the loss of the appreciation of beauty, generally.

However, I will strenuously disagree with Louis, on THIS point. For centuries,, gay men - from Leonardo and Michelangelo, to Tchaikovsky and Proust - have been foremost in bearing forth the arts, and culture, as lights unto the world. I'm convinced that, this is at least in part, because persecution made the arts a safe, secure, and perfect outlet, for the expression of their genius - when other outlets were closed off, to them. I believe that the STRUGGLE was commensurate, with the ACHIEVEMENT. And ~ though it might seem harsh to say so ~ I think that as the struggle has abated - so has the incentive to create beautiful expressions of resistance, and personal feeling, IN ART.

Last, I would like to say - though I thoroughly approve of the advancement of gay legal rights: which has been essential, and NEEDFUL -and beneficial to so many people's HAPPINESS: I do think the gay community has a NEW problem. Because it has so long been shunned and mischaracterized and mistreated by the great religious traditions (and has often, therefore, rejected them: probably quite rightfully): it seems to me that the gay community is now a profoundly secular and individualistic one. (Just like the world, at large.)

And so, I see today's gay community (often) not as a community at all, really - but rather as a loose congeries of individuals seeking their own self-interest, at every turn: in quite a ruthless, emotionally and economically rational, way. People making loose affiliations with other people based on looks and money and power - always looking to their own self-advantage. (And who am I kidding? It was probably mostly that way in the OLD days, too. Except, now, I think it is a starker, more clearly defined, pursuit of self-interest.)

Once, when Quentin Crisp was asked, "What do you think of the gay community?", he replied: "I believe there is NO SUCH HAPPY CONFEDERACY. I suppose that I think so, too. And I suppose there never was.

It is marvelous (and crucial) that gay people now have substantial legal protections in society, that we didn't formerly have - but I think that, having gained them, gay people have (to some extent) both risen to the BEST in our North American society, and descended to the DEPTHS of it. Consumerism, treating people as products, and all the rest of that.

"A" XOXOXOXOXOXO

P.S. It might scandalize you, but I agree with Mr. Crisp, about most things, because I am not an optimist: and not, particularly, an humanitarian, either (that is why I get on so well, with all my Russian friends ;-):

*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f80xVzE9aeg
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8wEDRt20mI
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVU0ggZMY98
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On-dap7UHO8

*****************************************************

"Symphony Number 6, "Pathetique", Pyotyr Ilyich Tchaikovsky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHAfvUFtCIY

 

[another1]

when the district with a majority gay population elected the city's first gay councilmember, gay people all over the city were proud. the question was raised could a gay man or woman be elected in any other district? in the silence, even the crickets paused. the first gay man elected from a non-gay district was an asshole. proving that being gay is one thing, having good qualities is another.