Ambivalent
BSB Addict
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2009
- Posts
- 1,811
- Reaction score
- 2
Hi, everyone (XOXOXOXOXO)
I am sorry for posting this thread, but many things which (to me) are of significance, were posted on this general theme whilst I was away on holidays, and while I think most people have had the opportunity to say their piece, I did not. If the Administrator of the board is gracious enough to allow me to have my say about this current controversy, I would be most grateful, but also would be absolutely happy if he or she closed this thread, too - or at least, if those who have specific agreements or disagreements with me, take them up with me in private conversations, rather than roiling the board. I simply didn't have an opportunity to write upon a subject which, I think, is important to the site, the board, and the future of the board.
I hasten to add that I like everybody who has written about this subject, from very different perspectives. In addition, some of the specific questions that have been raised recently no longer apply to me, because since meeting Mr. K., who takes all my attention, and needs some assistance from time to time - I no longer have the luxury of tipping or giving presents to models, any longer. However, I do think there are some larger issues at stake, and, with your forgiveness, I would appreciate the opportunity to speak to these.
************************************************** *************************
At either end of the spectrum, there seem to be two definite camps, at Broke Straight Boys - those who find the opportunity to interact with the models on the board, in a variety of ways, an intrinsic delight (even when controversies sometimes arise). . . and those who find models' presence here an intrusion, because they see the board mostly as a place for members to comment upon and critique both models and specific video productions - - - and to suggest improvements, which they would like to be able to do, independently and free of models' scrutiny.
I have never made any secret of the fact that I am firmly in the first camp, here, but I understand how people in the other camp feel, also. And, also, I suspect most members here (the "silent majority", if you will) dwell somewhere in the MIDDLE, enjoying the occasional interaction with a model or two they like, via the board, but also wanting to be able to be critical about certain videos at times, if they wish, without feeling embarrassed for doing so.
************************************************** *************************
When it comes to business-models for models' interaction with members, there are three possible models for site-owners to follow:
1.) No interaction of ANY kind;
2.) Moderate and controlled interaction;
3.) Maximal interaction - even up to and including the giving of gifts, and tipping.
It seems to me that Broke Straight Boys has chosen the second option; what is being disputed, now, is exactly HOW the balance is to be struck, and what it shall include.
When I began visiting gay erotic sites, lo, these 15 years ago, the norm was (believe it or not) for most (or at least a great many) sites to have a message-board - many of which the models could join. As you all know, this is no longer the case. Most gay erotic sites choose now, NOT to have a message-board at all (let alone to allow models to participate in the discussions): no doubt partly for liability reasons, but also because (as with all groups of human beings) disputes occasionally (who am I kidding - FREQUENTLY) arise: and having a board becomes a headache for the management, and their employees who have to oversee the board.
As far as I know, Broke Straight Boys is the last, great, truly large and popular gay erotic site to retain a message-board AT ALL - let alone to allow models to participate in its discussions. To me, this is one of the chief reasons to BE a member of Broke Straight Boys, and I think it would be a shame if the site went down the easy path many others have done, and said, "This is too much trouble: let's close the thing down, and just let members express their appreciation of the various models digitally, by clicking a 'like' or 'dislike' button."
************************************************** ***************************
To those who think the Broke Straight Boys message-board system is out of control, though (especially where interaction with models is concerned, and specifically with respect to models' offering links for members to share Christmas presents, and etc.) I would simply mention the following:
Lo, these 15 years ago, I belonged to a site in Toronto, which used to be state-of-the-art, but I think has now faded somewhat (if it still exists) because its business-model proved to be too expensive. Back in that day, it was sort of a "farm-team" for many large American erotic video sites, because it gave straight and bi-curious and gay boys alike, the chance to see if they liked performing for the camera, both in solo, and duo shows. (And some big, or relatively big, American gay erotic-video stars emerged from that environment.)
The models all lived together in a downtown condo, and the site offered the members the option to:
*Telephone the models, and speak to them live, in the living room;
*Access wish-lists, and purchase the models Christmas or birthday presents (their birthdays were all listed on the site); and -
*You could even send your favourite model GROCERIES, and his favourite FOODS, if you wanted.
That site even had its own DEDICATED FLORIST, who had the models' 'stage-names', and she would put together a dozen roses for your favourite model for Valentine's-Day, if you wanted ;-) Yes, maybe it was pretty silly, but it was kind of fun, also. You were not allowed (of course) to know the models' real names or personal details, but the interaction was MAXIMAL.
I don't see that sort of model ever taking off at Broke Straight Boys - nor do I think it necessarily ever SHOULD. But it was kind of fun, back in the day. . . . and I adduce this, simply to indicate to those who are discomfited by Broke Straight Boys models' giving access to fans to send a Christmas present or something. . . . Broke Straight Boys has really followed a MIDDLE path, in all of this.
************************************************** ******************************
About our models, and what they say and do - I would just like to repeat a couple of things, which I have said many times, before:
1.) Yes, I agree with Damien Kyle - our models are absolutely people, too, just like us. And I enjoy it far more when I get to know them a little AS people.
2.) Contra Damien Kyle, however (and I am systematically mis-reading him for a moment; taking his remarks a little bit out of context): I do believe that while we know are models are doing it MOSTLY for the money, and NEED the money. . . our BEST Broke Straight Boys models in history, have been people who have enjoyed interacting with their fans, as well - either on the board, or at Broke Straight Boys events, during the "Pride Season".
3.) Sometimes - a model will say something with which I personally don't agree. If it is TRULY objectionable to me, I will either pass it over completely, or - call him out on it, as I have done a few times, in the past.
4.) But on the whole, I prefer that our models are interacting with us, than not. Because this sort of interaction is something that doesn't happen any longer, on any other major board, or site, that I know of.
I live very far, in the north of Canada. I am never going to have the opportunity, likely, to meet ANY of our Broke Straight Boys models. So, I treasure the little board-exchanges I have had with the likes of Jason, Paul, Damien Kyle, and Tyler. Yes, they sometimes might put a foot wrong in chat, or put a foot in their mouth (I have called out Damien Kyle a couple of times, but still like him) - but. . . so do we all, including and especially, me. I would prefer for them to have continued and open access to the boards, to write and respond.
And the board is a nice, safe place for us all to interact, and respond. Because it enables models and members to converse freely, but with relative privacy. Unlike many other forms of social media.
************************************************** ***************************
When it comes to models' offering links to allow their fans to send them a little present for a birthday or Christmas, or a little tip sometimes: guys, I must say, I have no problem, with this, at all.
Some members see this as inappropriate, or distasteful, but I do not. Two of my life's best friends were once models (one Canadian, and one Russian; one was straight, and one was gay). They did modeling on-line because they were super hard up, and needed help to pay for school. If they hadn't been, they surely never would have done it. The gay one told me (back when we first met): "'A', when my parents found out I was gay, they cut me OFF from all financial help. I had to pay for my school, and I tried working three minimum-wage jobs at a time ~ restaurant server, clerk in two clothing stores ~ and I couldn't pay for my RENT on that, let alone my tuition. That's why I am doing this. . . "
Look, I have no doubt that Broke Straight Boys is a good and decent employer, and pays its models to the industry standard, or better. But, there are a couple of things all of us should remember:
1.) While 'per-scene' pay seems high to many of us, in ordinary life - like, a lot more than ANY of US could make in an hour or seven (sometimes these 'shoots' go on a lot longer, and are much more arduous, than most of us realize): just as Mike said, being a model in erotic video is NOT a job, "like any other". (Like being an engineer, or a teacher, or even a writer like me.) It is a short-term, short-lived, engagement: it pays a couple of bills, and then you are right back where you started.
2.) With all due respect to my friends from the U.S.A., to my friends who are NOT in the U.S.A. - - - those of us in Canada and Western Europe can hardly realize how tough it is, to be poor and struggling, in the U.S. (I know whereof I speak, because my beloved b/f has faced many of these issues.) Because the U.S. social welfare and training system for those who are economically disadvantaged, is basically, NIL.
If you are an untrained, unskilled worker, in the U.S.A., and a single young man with no offspring (to help you qualify for welfare benefits), and no family to offer you support (and, as we all know, many of our models have experienced major family issues): you are basically screwed.
Unlike in Canada or many countries in the E.U., or to some extent the U.K., also - - - if you are poor in the U.S.A., and didn't get the chance to go to school and get some skills, you are in a tough, tough, spot. You will have NO WAY to GET to school. You will have NO MEDICAL benefits, without a lot of begging and pleading, and maybe not even then - - - and may Jesus Christ Himself HELP you, if you get sick. (My b/f presently has had a severe respiratory infection - the X-rays alone cost him $700. By all economic indicators, he would be qualified for government assistance to pay for this - but, you know what? He comes from a state with a notoriously 'conservative' Governor, who has basically just said, "F*** the poor" - let them get jobs, or let them die" ~ according to some Darwinian law. And so enrollment to Medicaid has been closed in his state, for years.)
Look - - - - in Canadian terms, I'm a conservative. I'm not a socialist, or even a liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, strong law-enforcement, and strong national defence. I don't know if any of you have ever read any of my arguments on this board with Tampa about it, but I liked Henry Kissinger, too ;-) I am pretty ruthless, at times. However, I think anyone who is poor, in the U.S.A., is in for a rotten time - in a way that is unjustifiable, and just wouldn't HAPPEN in Canada, or much of Europe - at least to the same extent. And I think it is only fair and realistic to recognize that a lot of our Broke Straight Boys models are in that (leaky) boat.
I have no clue what Broke Straight Boys pays for a scene, but let's just put it this way - whether it is $1,000, or even $2,000 for what we see as 20 minutes' work, might seem SWEET to those of us who have regular jobs and a home and medical insurance. But. . . . for a kid who has no family support, no skills, and is trying to get back to school, even to learn to work in a restaurant or something. . . $2,000 is PEANUTS. It'll pay your rent and your phone and some food and clothes for a month. . . and then you are back to square one.
************************************************** **************************
So, I would just humbly BEG all my friends on here - if it bugs you sometimes, how sometimes the models intrude upon members' discussions to let their fans know how they can help out, if they want to - - - please just remember, most of these guys are not as lucky, as most of US, are. Some of them are working hard to get back into school, and turn their lives around. . . some of them are just working like hell, to TRY and SURVIVE. I think a little compassion and understanding, is in order.
************************************************** **************************
All in all, and in conclusion:
While I appreciate everybody's position on ALL these discussion, and I am friends with, and love pretty much everybody who wrote - I mostly agree with Rafe's suggestion: which I thought was kind, reasonable, and practical.
If some members feel unhappy or discomfited when models give us links to places where members can give gifts on Amazon, or tips, or what-have-you: then let this be done on a separate thread on the models' section. I think this would work for everybody - because, if any member didn't want to read those posts, he wouldn't HAVE to. (I however, personally, am fine with any model writing whatever he likes, wherever he likes. I am sort of a 'libertarian', when it comes to freedom of speech. I think freedom of speech is not only the foundation of democracy. . . historically, I've also found it to be the foundation of FUN ;-)
I ALSO strongly feel that the models' section should be significantly revised. At the moment, it seems to me it is kind of straight-jacketed, so that ALL subjects and comments under any given model's name, must be posted under that name, so members who care about such things have to search the thread extensively.
I think all models who post should be able to start new subjects that matter to THEM, under NEW headings in the models' section. So that, if some model wants to say, "My birthday is coming up - here is my wishlist!"; or, "I was really unhappy about comments 'x' or 'y'; or, "I love skateboarding", or WHATEVER ~ he could easily do so, and his FANS could SEE what he is thinking, and respond; and those who are NOT fans, or who are irritated by such comments, could just as easily pass over the whole section.
Those are just my thoughts, but I am very serious about them, so, I hope the Administrator will permit them to remain. Please don't reply to this, here: because I am signally NOT trying to stir more controversy or hurt anyone's feelings. I mean no hurt or disrespect to ANYBODY.
If anyone has concerns or comments about what I have said, above: you are more than welcome to write to me personally through PM's here, and I will do my best to get back to you, whether what you have to say is approving, or disapproving, of what I have written.
Love, and Happy New Year,
"A" XOXOXOXOXOXO
*"He ain't heavy, he's my brother."
I am sorry for posting this thread, but many things which (to me) are of significance, were posted on this general theme whilst I was away on holidays, and while I think most people have had the opportunity to say their piece, I did not. If the Administrator of the board is gracious enough to allow me to have my say about this current controversy, I would be most grateful, but also would be absolutely happy if he or she closed this thread, too - or at least, if those who have specific agreements or disagreements with me, take them up with me in private conversations, rather than roiling the board. I simply didn't have an opportunity to write upon a subject which, I think, is important to the site, the board, and the future of the board.
I hasten to add that I like everybody who has written about this subject, from very different perspectives. In addition, some of the specific questions that have been raised recently no longer apply to me, because since meeting Mr. K., who takes all my attention, and needs some assistance from time to time - I no longer have the luxury of tipping or giving presents to models, any longer. However, I do think there are some larger issues at stake, and, with your forgiveness, I would appreciate the opportunity to speak to these.
************************************************** *************************
At either end of the spectrum, there seem to be two definite camps, at Broke Straight Boys - those who find the opportunity to interact with the models on the board, in a variety of ways, an intrinsic delight (even when controversies sometimes arise). . . and those who find models' presence here an intrusion, because they see the board mostly as a place for members to comment upon and critique both models and specific video productions - - - and to suggest improvements, which they would like to be able to do, independently and free of models' scrutiny.
I have never made any secret of the fact that I am firmly in the first camp, here, but I understand how people in the other camp feel, also. And, also, I suspect most members here (the "silent majority", if you will) dwell somewhere in the MIDDLE, enjoying the occasional interaction with a model or two they like, via the board, but also wanting to be able to be critical about certain videos at times, if they wish, without feeling embarrassed for doing so.
************************************************** *************************
When it comes to business-models for models' interaction with members, there are three possible models for site-owners to follow:
1.) No interaction of ANY kind;
2.) Moderate and controlled interaction;
3.) Maximal interaction - even up to and including the giving of gifts, and tipping.
It seems to me that Broke Straight Boys has chosen the second option; what is being disputed, now, is exactly HOW the balance is to be struck, and what it shall include.
When I began visiting gay erotic sites, lo, these 15 years ago, the norm was (believe it or not) for most (or at least a great many) sites to have a message-board - many of which the models could join. As you all know, this is no longer the case. Most gay erotic sites choose now, NOT to have a message-board at all (let alone to allow models to participate in the discussions): no doubt partly for liability reasons, but also because (as with all groups of human beings) disputes occasionally (who am I kidding - FREQUENTLY) arise: and having a board becomes a headache for the management, and their employees who have to oversee the board.
As far as I know, Broke Straight Boys is the last, great, truly large and popular gay erotic site to retain a message-board AT ALL - let alone to allow models to participate in its discussions. To me, this is one of the chief reasons to BE a member of Broke Straight Boys, and I think it would be a shame if the site went down the easy path many others have done, and said, "This is too much trouble: let's close the thing down, and just let members express their appreciation of the various models digitally, by clicking a 'like' or 'dislike' button."
************************************************** ***************************
To those who think the Broke Straight Boys message-board system is out of control, though (especially where interaction with models is concerned, and specifically with respect to models' offering links for members to share Christmas presents, and etc.) I would simply mention the following:
Lo, these 15 years ago, I belonged to a site in Toronto, which used to be state-of-the-art, but I think has now faded somewhat (if it still exists) because its business-model proved to be too expensive. Back in that day, it was sort of a "farm-team" for many large American erotic video sites, because it gave straight and bi-curious and gay boys alike, the chance to see if they liked performing for the camera, both in solo, and duo shows. (And some big, or relatively big, American gay erotic-video stars emerged from that environment.)
The models all lived together in a downtown condo, and the site offered the members the option to:
*Telephone the models, and speak to them live, in the living room;
*Access wish-lists, and purchase the models Christmas or birthday presents (their birthdays were all listed on the site); and -
*You could even send your favourite model GROCERIES, and his favourite FOODS, if you wanted.
That site even had its own DEDICATED FLORIST, who had the models' 'stage-names', and she would put together a dozen roses for your favourite model for Valentine's-Day, if you wanted ;-) Yes, maybe it was pretty silly, but it was kind of fun, also. You were not allowed (of course) to know the models' real names or personal details, but the interaction was MAXIMAL.
I don't see that sort of model ever taking off at Broke Straight Boys - nor do I think it necessarily ever SHOULD. But it was kind of fun, back in the day. . . . and I adduce this, simply to indicate to those who are discomfited by Broke Straight Boys models' giving access to fans to send a Christmas present or something. . . . Broke Straight Boys has really followed a MIDDLE path, in all of this.
************************************************** ******************************
About our models, and what they say and do - I would just like to repeat a couple of things, which I have said many times, before:
1.) Yes, I agree with Damien Kyle - our models are absolutely people, too, just like us. And I enjoy it far more when I get to know them a little AS people.
2.) Contra Damien Kyle, however (and I am systematically mis-reading him for a moment; taking his remarks a little bit out of context): I do believe that while we know are models are doing it MOSTLY for the money, and NEED the money. . . our BEST Broke Straight Boys models in history, have been people who have enjoyed interacting with their fans, as well - either on the board, or at Broke Straight Boys events, during the "Pride Season".
3.) Sometimes - a model will say something with which I personally don't agree. If it is TRULY objectionable to me, I will either pass it over completely, or - call him out on it, as I have done a few times, in the past.
4.) But on the whole, I prefer that our models are interacting with us, than not. Because this sort of interaction is something that doesn't happen any longer, on any other major board, or site, that I know of.
I live very far, in the north of Canada. I am never going to have the opportunity, likely, to meet ANY of our Broke Straight Boys models. So, I treasure the little board-exchanges I have had with the likes of Jason, Paul, Damien Kyle, and Tyler. Yes, they sometimes might put a foot wrong in chat, or put a foot in their mouth (I have called out Damien Kyle a couple of times, but still like him) - but. . . so do we all, including and especially, me. I would prefer for them to have continued and open access to the boards, to write and respond.
And the board is a nice, safe place for us all to interact, and respond. Because it enables models and members to converse freely, but with relative privacy. Unlike many other forms of social media.
************************************************** ***************************
When it comes to models' offering links to allow their fans to send them a little present for a birthday or Christmas, or a little tip sometimes: guys, I must say, I have no problem, with this, at all.
Some members see this as inappropriate, or distasteful, but I do not. Two of my life's best friends were once models (one Canadian, and one Russian; one was straight, and one was gay). They did modeling on-line because they were super hard up, and needed help to pay for school. If they hadn't been, they surely never would have done it. The gay one told me (back when we first met): "'A', when my parents found out I was gay, they cut me OFF from all financial help. I had to pay for my school, and I tried working three minimum-wage jobs at a time ~ restaurant server, clerk in two clothing stores ~ and I couldn't pay for my RENT on that, let alone my tuition. That's why I am doing this. . . "
Look, I have no doubt that Broke Straight Boys is a good and decent employer, and pays its models to the industry standard, or better. But, there are a couple of things all of us should remember:
1.) While 'per-scene' pay seems high to many of us, in ordinary life - like, a lot more than ANY of US could make in an hour or seven (sometimes these 'shoots' go on a lot longer, and are much more arduous, than most of us realize): just as Mike said, being a model in erotic video is NOT a job, "like any other". (Like being an engineer, or a teacher, or even a writer like me.) It is a short-term, short-lived, engagement: it pays a couple of bills, and then you are right back where you started.
2.) With all due respect to my friends from the U.S.A., to my friends who are NOT in the U.S.A. - - - those of us in Canada and Western Europe can hardly realize how tough it is, to be poor and struggling, in the U.S. (I know whereof I speak, because my beloved b/f has faced many of these issues.) Because the U.S. social welfare and training system for those who are economically disadvantaged, is basically, NIL.
If you are an untrained, unskilled worker, in the U.S.A., and a single young man with no offspring (to help you qualify for welfare benefits), and no family to offer you support (and, as we all know, many of our models have experienced major family issues): you are basically screwed.
Unlike in Canada or many countries in the E.U., or to some extent the U.K., also - - - if you are poor in the U.S.A., and didn't get the chance to go to school and get some skills, you are in a tough, tough, spot. You will have NO WAY to GET to school. You will have NO MEDICAL benefits, without a lot of begging and pleading, and maybe not even then - - - and may Jesus Christ Himself HELP you, if you get sick. (My b/f presently has had a severe respiratory infection - the X-rays alone cost him $700. By all economic indicators, he would be qualified for government assistance to pay for this - but, you know what? He comes from a state with a notoriously 'conservative' Governor, who has basically just said, "F*** the poor" - let them get jobs, or let them die" ~ according to some Darwinian law. And so enrollment to Medicaid has been closed in his state, for years.)
Look - - - - in Canadian terms, I'm a conservative. I'm not a socialist, or even a liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, strong law-enforcement, and strong national defence. I don't know if any of you have ever read any of my arguments on this board with Tampa about it, but I liked Henry Kissinger, too ;-) I am pretty ruthless, at times. However, I think anyone who is poor, in the U.S.A., is in for a rotten time - in a way that is unjustifiable, and just wouldn't HAPPEN in Canada, or much of Europe - at least to the same extent. And I think it is only fair and realistic to recognize that a lot of our Broke Straight Boys models are in that (leaky) boat.
I have no clue what Broke Straight Boys pays for a scene, but let's just put it this way - whether it is $1,000, or even $2,000 for what we see as 20 minutes' work, might seem SWEET to those of us who have regular jobs and a home and medical insurance. But. . . . for a kid who has no family support, no skills, and is trying to get back to school, even to learn to work in a restaurant or something. . . $2,000 is PEANUTS. It'll pay your rent and your phone and some food and clothes for a month. . . and then you are back to square one.
************************************************** **************************
So, I would just humbly BEG all my friends on here - if it bugs you sometimes, how sometimes the models intrude upon members' discussions to let their fans know how they can help out, if they want to - - - please just remember, most of these guys are not as lucky, as most of US, are. Some of them are working hard to get back into school, and turn their lives around. . . some of them are just working like hell, to TRY and SURVIVE. I think a little compassion and understanding, is in order.
************************************************** **************************
All in all, and in conclusion:
While I appreciate everybody's position on ALL these discussion, and I am friends with, and love pretty much everybody who wrote - I mostly agree with Rafe's suggestion: which I thought was kind, reasonable, and practical.
If some members feel unhappy or discomfited when models give us links to places where members can give gifts on Amazon, or tips, or what-have-you: then let this be done on a separate thread on the models' section. I think this would work for everybody - because, if any member didn't want to read those posts, he wouldn't HAVE to. (I however, personally, am fine with any model writing whatever he likes, wherever he likes. I am sort of a 'libertarian', when it comes to freedom of speech. I think freedom of speech is not only the foundation of democracy. . . historically, I've also found it to be the foundation of FUN ;-)
I ALSO strongly feel that the models' section should be significantly revised. At the moment, it seems to me it is kind of straight-jacketed, so that ALL subjects and comments under any given model's name, must be posted under that name, so members who care about such things have to search the thread extensively.
I think all models who post should be able to start new subjects that matter to THEM, under NEW headings in the models' section. So that, if some model wants to say, "My birthday is coming up - here is my wishlist!"; or, "I was really unhappy about comments 'x' or 'y'; or, "I love skateboarding", or WHATEVER ~ he could easily do so, and his FANS could SEE what he is thinking, and respond; and those who are NOT fans, or who are irritated by such comments, could just as easily pass over the whole section.
Those are just my thoughts, but I am very serious about them, so, I hope the Administrator will permit them to remain. Please don't reply to this, here: because I am signally NOT trying to stir more controversy or hurt anyone's feelings. I mean no hurt or disrespect to ANYBODY.
If anyone has concerns or comments about what I have said, above: you are more than welcome to write to me personally through PM's here, and I will do my best to get back to you, whether what you have to say is approving, or disapproving, of what I have written.
Love, and Happy New Year,
"A" XOXOXOXOXOXO
*"He ain't heavy, he's my brother."
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