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Air disaster over Ukraine

joninliverton

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I find it deeply sad that, after nearly 24 hours of this disaster, that no one has put a thread up for it. Fair enough most of the dead are Dutch, all of the crew are Malaysian, 10 Brits including 2 guys from my area, Australians etc etc. Putin is being his usual arse wipe on this and is blaming the Ukrainian authorities because "it happened over their airspace".

Once again the West watches as Russian influence is extending into our territory and claiming western lives.

At least one airline - British Airways, have banned the overflying of Ukraine, yet others have not. They must be fucking nuts.
 
I'd like to post this section of songs by Rufus Wainwright who is one of my current favourite singers.

First song is Going to a Town, which I have posted before... The second song in the list is Across The Universe - by The Beatles of course.

It's quite apt for this thread that both songs are quite sad and kinda point that nothing will indeed change our world without intervention by political gems such as Winston Churchill and Kennedy... We need governments who will stick up and challenge to the once again emerging Russian Bear.

 
Thank you for starting this thread Jon as I wanted to say something but I didn't know how people would react. It's so sad that something like this has happened again and I feel sorry for all of those families and Freinds. Once again thank you for starting this and bringing to everyone's attention. Dan
 
I just saw bit and pieces on the news, so didn't really know a lot about this disaster. Very sad though!!!
 
I just saw bit and pieces on the news, so didn't really know a lot about this disaster. Very sad though!!!

Bits and pieces is what I saw on the news Peter, but it was bits and pieces of people. Over 80 kids died on that plane and the film crew found a dutch kiddies book on the ground next to a shoe.
 
The pro-Russian militants have really stepped in it here. I hope the perpetrators will be brought to justice for the murder of innocent life. Any moral credibility they might have thought their movement had prior to this, has evaporated in the court of world public opinion. Oddly enough it's similar to all the propaganda value, goodwill and positive afterglow that Putin hoped Russia would benefit from for at least a few years after the Olympic Games. He spent billions of dollars the country didn't have to spare. It was the most money that any country had ever spent on a winter Olympic Games, with much of it lost to bribes, kickbacks and corruption. Hoping for a big payoff in world opinion of Russia after the Games, he squandered every bit of that by immediately resorting to Soviet behavior on the world stage. So the world sees Putin for his true colors.
 
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Bits and pieces is what I saw on the news Peter, but it was bits and pieces of people. Over 80 kids died on that plane and the film crew found a dutch kiddies book on the ground next to a shoe.
Excuse me!!! It's not the first plane to go down this year and it won't be the last. Although it's a very sad thing to have happened and I hope the people responsible for this get caught, everyone all over the world isn't getting all upset over it. I'm sorry it is hitting you so hard, but don't expect everyone else to hurt as bad!!!
 
The pro-Russian militants have really stepped in it here. I hope the perpetrators will be brought to justice for the murder of innocent life. Any moral credibility they might have thought their movement had prior to this, has evaporated in the court of world public opinion. Oddly enough it's similar to all the propaganda value, goodwill and positive afterglow that Putin hoped Russia would benefit from for at least a few years after the Olympic Games. He spent billions of dollars the country didn't have to spare. It was the most money that any country had ever spent on a winter Olympic Games, with much of it lost to bribes, kickbacks and corruption. Hoping for a big payoff in world opinion of Russia after the Games, he squandered every bit of that by immediately resorting to Soviet behavior on the world stage. So the world sees Putin for his true colors.

Excuse me!!! It's not the first plane to go down this year and it won't be the last. Although it's a very sad thing to have happened and I hope the people responsible for this get caught, everyone all over the world isn't getting all upset over it. I'm sorry it is hitting you so hard, but don't expect everyone else to hurt as bad!!!

Two different approaches here. Peter obviously doesn't care what happens outside of the US however, Tampa as always, speaks with a clear mind. I am not in a desperate state over this: I am not losing sleep over this: What I am annoyed about is the West's lack of response with regard to sanctions against the Russians. The big mistake Ukraine made was not to join NATO however, what would NATO have done in response to this - Again I say probably zilch. We no longer have the great leaders that we had in WWII such as Churchill and of course JFK in the 60s who stood up to Russia. I am sorry but this isn't just about an aircraft being shot with 296 innocent lives lost, it's also about how much longer can we allow Russia to carry on arming rebels in their former satellites. If Ukraine falls to the rebels and once again becomes part of Russia, what next ? Belorussia ? Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania - Poland, Czechoslovakia.... Is there a pattern developing here..
 
Peter, the news coverage has been extensive over this. There is outrage throughout the world. The worse part is that Russian separatists and not allowing the International community to investigate the crime scene. There have been reports that even some of the passengers' credit cards have been stolen from the scene and used. And to make matters worse, relief workers have been blocked from going in and retrieving the bodies of the victims. They are being left in the fields to rot like dead animals.

Yes, It is hitting us hard. Regardless of where or who a crime of this nature occurred, it is a crime against mankind. There are wars going on throughout the middle east, in the Gaza strip, etc. where innocent casualties happen and we accept (but not agree) because those are the consequences of war. This was a commercial plane, carrying people and families from one destination to another. The plane was shot down by a missile deliberately. What human has the motivation to commit a crime of this nature other than one with a satanic heart.

Yes, it is hitting us hard. It is hitting me hard too. As a human and parent I cried when I heard the news.
 
I apologize for sounding cold on this subject, so sorry Jon, Tampa, Louis. Tampa and Louis's caring and emotional posts were so well written. And Jon I agree completely about our Governments lack of stepping up to Russia. We as Americans all 100's of millions of us don't have a say on how our Government chooses to respond to International tragedy's. We have faith the our leaders will make the correct decisions for all people home and abroad.
 
Two different approaches here. Peter obviously doesn't care what happens outside of the US however, Tampa as always, speaks with a clear mind. I am not in a desperate state over this: I am not losing sleep over this: What I am annoyed about is the West's lack of response with regard to sanctions against the Russians. The big mistake Ukraine made was not to join NATO however, what would NATO have done in response to this - Again I say probably zilch. We no longer have the great leaders that we had in WWII such as Churchill and of course JFK in the 60s who stood up to Russia. I am sorry but this isn't just about an aircraft being shot with 296 innocent lives lost, it's also about how much longer can we allow Russia to carry on arming rebels in their former satellites. If Ukraine falls to the rebels and once again becomes part of Russia, what next ? Belorussia ? Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania - Poland, Czechoslovakia.... Is there a pattern developing here..

I am going to make a huge political statement here which will probably cause a lot of controversy and possibly anger. You mentioned Churchill and JFK. They were key political figures in the annals of history. But, there have been others to follow. Sadly to say we did have a president who brought us and our allies into the current war we all are still involved in. Today, we have a President who is determined to get us out of war. He is filled with determination and conviction. He has continued to encounter many road blocks in his pursuit of justice, equality and peace among the People. During his Presidency we have witnessed many humanitarian changes in our society. American Troops and also those from other nations are also returning home. Health Care is now available for the poor and needy (my ex-wife included.) The LBGT community is being allowed to come out of the closet and freely become a part of society. We can serve in the military openly. We can marry who we chose. We can adopt children. We do not need to hide behind a closet door anymore and be afraid to come out and be alive and happy.

So much has happened in our society as well as throughout the world since this President took office. I do look up to JFK for his stance and determination against inhumanity. He had his flaws. President Clinton is another one who was accused of infidelity, but in the long run he opened the door to our sexual equality with his "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

This President continues to carry on the tradition of opening doors, not of hate or prejudice but of acceptance and love for human life. To me he is the perfect example of what a man and family represents. He is committed and strong on his convictions. He has a thick skin and shield against criticism and ridicule.

His only obstacle is that his skin is BLACK! His name is Barack Obama and his name will be written in the annals of history as a great leader.
 
I am going to make a huge political statement here which will probably cause a lot of controversy and possibly anger. You mentioned Churchill and JFK. They were key political figures in the annals of history. But, there have been others to follow. Sadly to say we did have a president who brought us and our allies into the current war we all are still involved in. Today, we have a President who is determined to get us out of war. He is filled with determination and conviction. He has continued to encounter many road blocks in his pursuit of justice, equality and peace among the People. During his Presidency we have witnessed many humanitarian changes in our society. American Troops and also those from other nations are also returning home. Health Care is now available for the poor and needy (my ex-wife included.) The LBGT community is being allowed to come out of the closet and freely become a part of society. We can serve in the military openly. We can marry who we chose. We can adopt children. We do not need to hide behind a closet door anymore and be afraid to come out and be alive and happy.

So much has happened in our society as well as throughout the world since this President took office. I do look up to JFK for his stance and determination against inhumanity. He had his flaws. President Clinton is another one who was accused of infidelity, but in the long run he opened the door to our sexual equality with his "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

This President continues to carry on the tradition of opening doors, not of hate or prejudice but of acceptance and love for human life. To me he is the perfect example of what a man and family represents. He is committed and strong on his convictions. He has a thick skin and shield against criticism and ridicule.

His only obstacle is that his skin is BLACK! His name is Barack Obama and his name will be written in the annals of history as a great leader.
Well put Louis!!
 
Well put Louis!!

Thank you, Peter. Just your three words got me crying again. I am very passionate of what is going on around the world. I wish that all the crimes, wars, and injustice would just end. We were created as a loving species. It is so difficult for me to accept that an evil force has the atrocity to try and destroy what we were meant to have. The battle began a long time ago, but we will prevail. Love conquers all.
 
I am going to make a huge political statement here which will probably cause a lot of controversy and possibly anger. You mentioned Churchill and JFK. They were key political figures in the annals of history. But, there have been others to follow. Sadly to say we did have a president who brought us and our allies into the current war we all are still involved in. Today, we have a President who is determined to get us out of war. He is filled with determination and conviction. He has continued to encounter many road blocks in his pursuit of justice, equality and peace among the People. During his Presidency we have witnessed many humanitarian changes in our society. American Troops and also those from other nations are also returning home. Health Care is now available for the poor and needy (my ex-wife included.) The LBGT community is being allowed to come out of the closet and freely become a part of society. We can serve in the military openly. We can marry who we chose. We can adopt children. We do not need to hide behind a closet door anymore and be afraid to come out and be alive and happy.

So much has happened in our society as well as throughout the world since this President took office. I do look up to JFK for his stance and determination against inhumanity. He had his flaws. President Clinton is another one who was accused of infidelity, but in the long run he opened the door to our sexual equality with his "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

This President continues to carry on the tradition of opening doors, not of hate or prejudice but of acceptance and love for human life. To me he is the perfect example of what a man and family represents. He is committed and strong on his convictions. He has a thick skin and shield against criticism and ridicule.

His only obstacle is that his skin is BLACK! His name is Barack Obama and his name will be written in the annals of history as a great leader.

True but Churchill and JFK have gone down in history and hopefully your current president will do. However, as a current president he will be seen to have failed on the world stage if he and his European allies do not combat Putin and his cronies. Putin is an ex KGB officer and is a devious bastard which has carried through to his leadership. Note how he decided to act on Crimea only AFTER the winter olympics. I hope the rest of the world see him for who he is and boycott the 2018 World Cup and whatever stage event Russia are holding. But the greatest pain for Russia and Putin would be for Europe to stop taking it's oil and gas. It would hurt, but sometimes it has to be that way.
 
Excuse me!!! It's not the first plane to go down this year and it won't be the last. Although it's a very sad thing to have happened and I hope the people responsible for this get caught, everyone all over the world isn't getting all upset over it. I'm sorry it is hitting you so hard, but don't expect everyone else to hurt as bad!!!

********************************

Hey, Peter,

I love you very much, and understand your comments. Obviously, aircraft go down from time to time, in tragic circumstances - - - like Malaysia Airlines MH370. (Even though those circumstances, have yet fully to be discovered, and discerned.) And incidents like that are just as scary, and just as sad, for those who have lost loved-ones: as what happened to flight MH17. And kind people mourn, upon all such tragic occasions.

The significant difference in this case, Peter (I think): is that there is growing evidence that this tragedy was caused deliberately, and with malice ~ by irresponsible and bloodthirsty insurgents who wanted to wreak havoc for a political agenda - and who were funded and supplied with the arms to do this deed, by Moscow. If this happened over U.S. air-space, imagine the uproar, and indignation (and military reprisals) that would ensue. . . and, rightly so.

I would say:
*This is a human tragedy - and I think Jon is right, to mark it.
*This is a political scandal - and I think Jon is right, to note it.
*This is a security and safety worry for all of us who, from time to time, travel by air - and one which must be addressed. And I think we ALL ought to attend, to it.

No kidding, Peter, tragedies happen in the air, all the time - and we should care about all of them, just as much as this one. BUT - there is a special warrant for concern when a tragedy like this is not only avoidable, but also apparently SPONSORED by a state which is fomenting insurrection, and furnishing terrorists with materiel de guerre, over which they have no control, and which they have no sense, will be handled responsibly - EVEN UNDER the (terrible) laws of WAR. http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-...-malaysia-airlines-flight-17-crash-1405816389

Perhaps I am just taking this hard, Peter, because my brother-in-law is Dutch: and so (therefore) are my treasured niece, and nephews. But I think every gay man ought to be taking this a little hard, too: because one of the casualties of this cruel assault was Dr. Joep Lange, a leading AIDS researcher who dedicated his life to helping find a cure. . . and his advocacy, to making life-saving drugs available for HIV patients, in countries where people are usually too poor to afford them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joep_Lange

And then there is the case of poor Andrei Anghel, of Ajax, Ontario, Canada. . . a graduate of the biomedical science programme at the University of Waterloo - - - who was just on his way for a little holiday, before getting on with further scientific studies. (I'm going to attach Andrei's photo, if I can - - - just to personalize this, for people. What a lovely smile he had! And how sad that he, and all those other people, were lost.)

It's bad enough, when things like this happen due to mechanical failure, or human error. . . as they always have, and always will. But, when it is a deliberate act of malice and aggression. . . that (to my mind) is morally different. And something that calls out to us, as human beings, to think differently, about it.

"A" XOXOXOXOXOXO

P.S. If I can attach it, here is Andrei Anghel's photo. Andrei Anghel, Canadian victim, MH17.jpg

P.P.S. May all the victims of this horrible act, rest in peace, and may their families one day find comfort, in memory: though it will surely not be easy, and probably never come. Because there can never really be any comfort, when people have been killed, so senselessly. I, personally, can make no sense of it. . . and I will always wonder, why people have to be so evil, to one another. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7rcmOIsINU
 
Two different approaches here. Peter obviously doesn't care what happens outside of the US however, Tampa as always, speaks with a clear mind. I am not in a desperate state over this: I am not losing sleep over this: What I am annoyed about is the West's lack of response with regard to sanctions against the Russians. The big mistake Ukraine made was not to join NATO however, what would NATO have done in response to this - Again I say probably zilch. We no longer have the great leaders that we had in WWII such as Churchill and of course JFK in the 60s who stood up to Russia. I am sorry but this isn't just about an aircraft being shot with 296 innocent lives lost, it's also about how much longer can we allow Russia to carry on arming rebels in their former satellites. If Ukraine falls to the rebels and once again becomes part of Russia, what next ? Belorussia ? Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania - Poland, Czechoslovakia.... Is there a pattern developing here..

*******************************

Jon,

It's obviously a pattern. Putin is an old KGB-man, but has concocted a particularly pernicious fascist ideology all his OWN. It is unlike the old Soviet ideology, but rather, is an odd admixture of statist corporatism, favouritism toward acquiescent oligarchs, a bullying use of energy resources to coerce neighbours, a fawning admiration for (and use of) the Russian Orthodox Church as a tool of the state, a dream-like love for the grandeur of the Tsars, and a poignant nostalgia for the military might and ruthlessness of the old Stalinist state. It's a very curious alchemy, but, to this point, it has worked, for Mr. Putin, so far. (Though, as the last Russian election-cycle showed: the plaster might be cracking, a little.)

The only two rules, with Putin, are: Don't disobey ME!; and, Let's make Russia a GREAT EMPIRE AGAIN - as it was, when WE were young.. *The second rule encompasses an endorsement of the annexation or subjugation, of all the nations which used to be part of the former Tsarist, or Soviet, empires.*

Though it is rather old, Jon, and pre-dates Putin's most recent "re-election": here is an excellent documentary which explains the formation of Putin's unique ideology: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5Rkom1RpKA

Unfortunately, I fear, this is a new Cold War. The Iron Curtain has come down, again. Putin is a fierce ideologue, but an ideologue with fewer PRINCIPLES (in fact) than his Marxist predecessors. It's extremely interesting that his accession to power was preceded by a confected (but bloody) terrorist attack, a provocation which would unite the nation, behind him. Now, of course, Putin is famous for assassinating journalists; jailing his political opposition; ruthlessly persecuting gay and lesbian people; and - from time to time: invading other countries. (Putin has famously said that the dissolution of the Soviet Union was "the greatest tragedy of the 20th century" ~ and has made no secret of the fact that he would like to RESTORE Russia's dominion, over all its old provinces.)

Though Putin's Russia is not as strong as the old Soviet Union was, it still has a couple of very big cards, to play. #1- The world's largest nuclear arsenal (not to mention untold reserves of chemical, and biological, weapons); and, #2 - Tremendous reserves of natural gas, and oil, which KEEP EUROPE WARM.

The first, means that (sadly) no purely military response is available to the U.S, NATO, or anybody ELSE - when Volodya goes on his little irredentist holiday-expeditions, in Georgia, or the Crimea. The second means that economic sanctions, are VERY difficult to impose, upon him. . . the Europeans don't WANT THEM. . . and, Jon, one understands WHY. . . it would COST THEM A LOT. (And a lot more than it would cost the Americans - - - at least in terms relative to GDP.)

To his credit, Barack Obama has shown a good deal of leadership in initiating sanctions, against Putin. http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/16/us_sanctions_russian_banks_and_energy_companies

The Europeans have been VERY slow to respond, but (I suppose) understandably so, given all their irons in the Russian forge. What is crucial, is what Angela Merkel, will do. (She has recently hinted that she is getting tired of Putin's singspiel. . . but it will be DIFFICULT for her to take a strong stand.) Her country is Russia's biggest trading partner in the EU, and only SHE has the power to hit back at him, in a way that HURTS. I have no idea whether she will be able to screw her courage to the sticking-place, or not. . . especially in the wake of a worldwide recession, which is not really over, yet. But I HOPE she will.

What is for sure, Jon is - yes - Putin will try to invade or subvert or control every former Soviet satellite-country he can (without regard for human lives): WHEN and HOW, he can. The West will NOT be able to beat him back, in his sinister endeavours, by sheer force of arms, especially in his own backyard. But. . . stronger economic sanctions could make his SUCCESSORS think hard. (Not Putin himself - his course has been set, and he has cast the die for the kind of world he wants. . . which, I am sure, is nothing any one of US, wants.)

"A" XOXOXOXOXOXOXO

P.S. I hope everyone on this board realizes, Jon. . . I have many kind and lovely friends, IN RUSSIA. But I could never write a letter as frank and open as this, to them. I always CAREFULLY self-censor my letters, to them.

Because - do Americans think they have problems with the NSA??? Well, any of my friends in Russia (the country Mr. Snowden prizes as the freest on earth, and which is saving him from American tyranny) who got a letter like this, would have the FSB at their door within two weeks. (Not one week - because the Russian bureaucracy is notoriously inefficient, though the FSB is the MOST EFFICIENT part of it - but, after TWO WEEKS, there WOULD be the knock at the door, and they'd go to JAIL. And there'd be interrogations, and beatings. . . and who knows, if they'd ever go home, again???)
 
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Thank you Ambi.

It defies belief that this could have happened without missiles and missile launchers brought in from Russia. Even if some of the insurgents had some military background it's also not believable that they could have operated this complex machinery without the aid of Russian advisors and trainers. The world can blame the separatists for it. And they should. But there's also the cold reality that just as in Crimea, there are official Russian military fingerprints (on the orders of Putin) all over this whole debacle.
 
I have avoided posting to this thread because there is no good place to start.
why would an airliner fly over an active conflict zone?
why would any nation give weapons to an amateur group in another nation?
cost savings and expansion. market share and power.
there is no good place to start.
on a battlefield lay 298 people. their are victims of someone else's conflict. someone else's calculation and miscalculation.
just people seeking to enjoy an experience of a lifetime, in peace. now they know a peace only the dead can know. I cry with the families for their lose. I cry out why!? at the intersection of global political politics and risk-benefit, there is loss of human life. why?
 
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